God and Stephen Hawking

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Shiloh357,

your post, if I interpret it correctly, seems to indicate that belief in A creator (and not THE creator) is a sufficient condition to attain salvation.More importantly, belief in Jesus, His sacrifice and atonement, knowledge of the Bible, etc. are also not universal preconditions for salvation. Good.

No, you don't intepret correctly. I said that belief in a creator will lead to THE Creator which will in turn bring a knowledge of Jesus Christ which is universally necessary for salvation. Simply acknlowedging the Creator's existence is only an early step toward salvation.

Let's see if I can put some structure in my thinking... Consider two populations P and Q: P consists of people who heard of the gospel (e.g. north America today) whereas Q consists of people who, for historical or geographical reasons outside their control, never heard the Gospel, the Bible and any other tenets of Christianity (e.g. Australians 600 years ago). Since a certain percentage of both populations can be saved, we can associate to each of them an individual probability of being saved: p is the probability for an element of P of being saved, and q the probability of being saved for an element of Q.

I make the assumption here that all humans are equal (the non-racist hypotheses) and that we all have the same average intelligence and sensitivity to understand external messages: I hope we agree with this hypotheses.

We can have only three cases:

1) q > p, that is, it is easier to be saved if you do not know anything about Christianity. This does not mean that God is unfair, He might hold us more accountable for knowing more. On the other hand, we should stop at once to evangelize, proselytize and sending missions to people who never heard of Jesus,the Bible, Adam and Eve, etc. because by doing that, we decrease their chances of salvation.

2) q = p. Both populations have the same chances. This is the fairest alternative, although we might ask ourselves why we study the Bible, hermeneutics, Hebrew, Greek, go to church or listen to our pastor. If members of population Q can attain the same rate of salvation without any of this, then why shouldn't we be able to do that without additional help? And again, sending missions and evangelizing is still useless (alas not dangerous anymore), for obvious reasons.

3) p > q. Knowing the Gospel and having the Bible as a guide increases our chances of salvation. Sending missions and evangelizing is useful, but for many many people, it is too late. This case questions God's fairness.

Which case applies here?

There are several problems not the least of which is that your initial assessment of my position is faulty due to your misinterpretation of my unambiguous and clearly deliniated position which has been stated and restated over multiple posts.

Secondly. God is not fair. God is just. There is a difference. God operates from the parameters of rightesouness. not the parameters of fairness. God is not obligated to be "fair." If God were fair, He would not have sent Jesus for mankind in the first place. It was not fair that an innocent man should pay for the sin of all mankind. We justly deserve to die for our sin, but God unfairly sacrificed His Son for our benefit.

The third problem is that you continue to base your position off the idea that people are judged for not hearing the Gospel and that is not true. They are judged for the general revelation of nauture that they ignored which would have led them to the Creator. Instead of turnin to the Creator, they choose to worship the creation and make gods out of animals, luminaries and other aspects of the created order.

They have chosen to ignore the "pin hole" of light that would have led them more information would have in turn, led them to Christ. That may not fit in any of your three cases above, but that is the proposition of Scripture, as I have previously posted.

[Guest shiloh357]

Which of the three cases applies? 1, 2 or 3?

Thanks a lot in advance

Ciao

- viole

I find it interesting that in each scenario you created, evangelism is either useless or harmful. So, no matter which scenario is chosen, the worst thing that Christians can do is witness our faith to others.

None of the three scenarios apply. They are based on your previous misinterpreation of my comments regarding salvation. They are predicated on the mistaken notion that belief in Jesus, His sacrifice and atonement, knowledge of the Bible not universal preconditions for salvation.

God is just. He has provided all that men need to come to faith in Him, and that includes the pagans and aboriginals, and whoever. No one has an excuse for their unblief. Especially those who have heard the message and rejected it.

You cannot question God's "fairness" because God isn't fair. God operates from the attribute of being just, not fair. Those are not interchangable concepts.

[Nakosis]

We can have only three cases:

1) q > p, that is, it is easier to be saved if you do not know anything about Christianity. This does not mean that God is unfair, He might hold us more accountable for knowing more. On the other hand, we should stop at once to evangelize, proselytize and sending missions to people who never heard of Jesus,the Bible, Adam and Eve, etc. because by doing that, we decrease their chances of salvation.

2) q = p. Both populations have the same chances. This is the fairest alternative, although we might ask ourselves why we study the Bible, hermeneutics, Hebrew, Greek, go to church or listen to our pastor. If members of population Q can attain the same rate of salvation without any of this, then why shouldn't we be able to do that without additional help? And again, sending missions and evangelizing is still useless (alas not dangerous anymore), for obvious reasons.

3) p > q. Knowing the Gospel and having the Bible as a guide increases our chances of salvation. Sending missions and evangelizing is useful, but for many many people, it is too late. This case questions God's fairness.

Which case applies here?

Ciao

- viole

2 - As to why study the Bible is to gain confidence in our understanding. IMO Christianity shouldn't be trying to covert anyone. They should provide a support system for those who have had a spiritual experience. Not everyone is ready to accept Jesus. However once they've had the necessary revelation they still need guidance. Of course a person could just rely on faith that this revelation will take place and do advanced study so they will be prepared.

However that really depends on how much trust they place in those who speak about Jesus.

So you study to help others prepare if they have the willingness and to be able to properly guide those who have had this revelation.

When these experiences happen, it's like diving into cold water for the first time. You don't know what to expect. Not sure exactly what is happening or how to convey the experience. It's a shock. That is what the Apostles were for, to prepare the faithful and provide guidance for the "newly reborn".

What I suspect is a number of the faithful that weren't actually reborn gained political power and authority and created a religious theology from their own wisdom. While they had faith in either the Apostles or the Bible they had no experience from which to relate their faith. From that assumption of authority they caused a lot of confusion even among those who had/have been born again.

A lot of issues you have with the credibility of Christianity is probably a result of that confusion. If one is not born again and is not willingly faithful I don't know that the Bible can necessarily be beneficial to them. For example you and UF use it to attack the credibility of Christianity. There is reason to question Christianity's credibility. However you can't touch the credibility of the Holy Spirit, not for someone who has experienced the Holy Spirit.

Probably why little headway is made trying to save those "born again" from their "God Delusion".

Edited October 19, 2011 by Nakosis

[Guest shiloh357]

IMO Christianity shouldn't be trying to covert anyone.

Jesus said otherwise:

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

(Mat 28:18-20)

There is reason to question Christianity's credibility.

Why is that?

[JustinM]

Well, at least you are here seeking your own answers. You have a healthy curiosity about Christianity, embrace it, it's the holy spirit calling you. The fact that you are pursuing answers to difficult questions does show some faith on your part. It will draw you closer to Him.

[Nakosis]

IMO Christianity shouldn't be trying to covert anyone.

Jesus said otherwise:

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

(Mat 28:18-20)

Only the willing.

There is reason to question Christianity's credibility.

Why is that?

Because of Christians

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357, on 19 October 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

Quote

IMO Christianity shouldn't be trying to covert anyone.

Jesus said otherwise:

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

(Mat 28:18-20)

Only the willing.

What do you mean?

Quote

Quote

There is reason to question Christianity's credibility.

Why is that?

Because of Christians

Christians are not perfect but that doesn't really cut it as an answer. That is just a cop out answer because you really have nothing of substance to offer in the face of REAL evidence and scholarship petaining to the Bible. None of the skeptics do. The credibility of the claims of the Christian faith are what stand to be tested for credibility. So far, you and other skeptics can't touch the claims of the Bible. Even on this forum, the impotence of skepticism has been exposed for how weak and beggardly it is. You guys are batting Zero.

[Nakosis]

What do you mean?

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Christians are not perfect but that doesn't really cut it as an answer. That is just a cop out answer because you really have nothing of substance to offer in the face of REAL evidence and scholarship petaining to the Bible. None of the skeptics do. The credibility of the claims of the Christian faith are what stand to be tested for credibility. So far, you and other skeptics can't touch the claims of the Bible. Even on this forum, the impotence of skepticism has been exposed for how weak and beggardly it is. You guys are batting Zero.

Matthew 5:16

In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

[~candice~]

Ugh I typed out a big reply and lost it. In summary...

I think the observational data suggests p>q but how would we ever know? We have no way to test beliefs or the intents of people's heart and we won't know til we get to heaven who is going to be there. I don't think this calls God's fairness into account. As Shiloh said, it was not "fair" for Christ to die for anyone. He has made it so that all men may be saved, that is gracious, merciful and not at all fair.

Viole, does this help? If faith comes from hearing, and some haven't heard, what does that say about p and q?

Ro 10

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h] Who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,“LORD, who has believed our report?”[j] 17 So then faith comesby hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[Botz]

Ugh I typed out a big reply and lost it. In summary...

I think the observational data suggests p>q but how would we ever know? We have no way to test beliefs or the intents of people's heart and we won't know til we get to heaven who is going to be there. I don't think this calls God's fairness into account. As Shiloh said, it was not "fair" for Christ to die for anyone. He has made it so that all men may be saved, that is gracious, merciful and not at all fair.

Viole, does this help? If faith comes from hearing, and some haven't heard, what does that say about p and q?

Ro 10

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h] Who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,“LORD, who has believed our report?”[j] 17 So then faith comesby hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Well, I think it must be like you say, otherwise it would not make much sense to evangelize and study the Bible. But if it is more likely to be saved if you heard the Gospel, then I do really question cosmic justice. Why are humans treated differently? Didn't Jesus die for everybody? We are talking here of an eternity in heaven or in hell, and I think that a just God should offer the same chances, otherwise it is not much different than winning or losing the lottery. He did not need to create humanity after all. What would you say if you find yourself in hell because you did not have the same opportunities of a rich American or European exposed to Christianity since birth?

Ciao

- viole

Hi Viole,

I think one of the things we have to understand about the Character and nature of G-d, is that He is just, no one will be banished from His presence who should be enjoying life everlasting. I don't think it is possible to work it all out, even from what is recorded in the Bible because when we look at things through our eyes we make judgments that do not include the whole picture because we are not G-d and not privvy to or capable of grasping the enormity of His Majesty and the utter righteousness of all His judgments. This is evident with some of the things that happened in the Old Covenant writings, not least the eradication of all human life except 8 people....or the methods for ridding Canaan of some of the pagan tribes.

We have to trust that He loves us, and that He expresses that love through giving us His Son, and through Jesus extends the opportunity to us to know Him and be saved.

Thoughtfully. Botz