The OT Law, Today

[Lauri]

Jesus clearly said the entire law is fulfilled in the commandments to love God with all your being and to love your neighbor as much as yourself. Also, many scriptures talk about freedom in Christ. There is even a verse that says Law came through Moses, and Grace through Christ. Besides, there were 16 crimes with the death penalty back then. If the law is still binding, you have some serious catching up to do. The sabbath law requires 6 days of work. People think they obey the Sabbath on Sunday, but if you worked 5 days, you have disobeyed it. There are exactly 618 laws in the Torah, the first 5 books by Moses. If the law is still binding, you have alot of studying to do to try to obey all of them. Also, where is the NT command for animal sacrifice, which was a HUGE part if the law? THE LAW IS NO LONGER BINDING.

Ok, so which law can I now break? Can I lie, steal, commit adultry? Or let's go even further, can I have another god?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but the name you have chosen for yourself implies you are a pastor. As a pastor do you really tell the flock that it is ok to sin, to disobey God?

The law of God, written with the finger of God in stone, kept inside the ark, is not the same as the law of Moses (which was nailed to the cross) which was written by Moses and placed on the outside of the ark.

Malachi 3:6 KJV

(6) For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

So I repeat my question, which of the following commandments is it ok to now break?

Exodus 20:1-17 KJV

(1) And God spake all these words, saying,

(2) I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

(3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

(5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

(6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(7) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

(8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

(9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

(10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

(12) Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

(13) Thou shalt not kill.

(14) Thou shalt not commit adultery.

(15) Thou shalt not steal.

(16) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

(17) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

[Lauri]

Romans 3:27-31 KJV

(27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

(28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

(29) Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

(30) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

(31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

[mizzdy]

Jesus clearly said the entire law is fulfilled in the commandments to love God with all your being and to love your neighbor as much as yourself. Also, many scriptures talk about freedom in Christ. There is even a verse that says Law came through Moses, and Grace through Christ. Besides, there were 16 crimes with the death penalty back then. If the law is still binding, you have some serious catching up to do. The sabbath law requires 6 days of work. People think they obey the Sabbath on Sunday, but if you worked 5 days, you have disobeyed it. There are exactly 618 laws in the Torah, the first 5 books by Moses. If the law is still binding, you have alot of studying to do to try to obey all of them. Also, where is the NT command for animal sacrifice, which was a HUGE part if the law? THE LAW IS NO LONGER BINDING.

If God instructions are no longer binding on us then its ok to do as we wish? No I don't think thats at all what He meant, He showed us how to rightly interpret His Torah, when we do anything out of love that is a fulfillment of the law. God said 'if you love me keep my commmandments' what are those commandments? The Sabbath law, the 4th commandment is given to us and governed by Messiah, it is not a commandment or a requirement to work 6 days just so you can take off one day. There would not be any commandment for sacrifice after His final one, but yet we still see Paul, Peter and the rest doing just that, do you suppose they didn't think His sacrifice was enough or were they following tradtions? Yes the law is binding on us today, or what is those commandments/Torah that is being written on your heart? There were 613 commandments given, some deal with priestly roles, some with sacrifice, some for woman and some for men and many others on how to govern the assembly. Its not a pick and choose but its what He puts upon your heart by Him.

shalom,

Mizz

[Guest yod]

Has heaven and earth passed away yet? Since Yeshua said that would happen before even the smallest letter would become void, then it appears that our "reasoning" is at contradictory odds with His Word.

Abraham trusted God and it was counted unto him as righteousness.

Salvation has never happened any other way. What happens afterward is where christians seem to have problems....

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus clearly said the entire law is fulfilled in the commandments to love God with all your being and to love your neighbor as much as yourself.

That isn't exactly what Jesus said. Jesus said that the entirety law and the prophets hang on the commandments to love God with all our heart, soul and strength and to love our neigbhors as ourselves. His point was that the law and the prophets find their full expression in those two great commandments.

Also, many scriptures talk about freedom in Christ. There is even a verse that says Law came through Moses, and Grace through Christ.

Freedom is not freedom from the law. It is freedom to honor God's law. We were set free from the bondage and captivity of sin. We were slaves to sin and now we are slaves to rightesousness. The law of God was not the problem. The problem was sin. The law pointed to the problem. God's grace as expressed in Jesus was/is the solution to the problem of sin.

Besides, there were 16 crimes with the death penalty back then. If the law is still binding, you have some serious catching up to do. The sabbath law requires 6 days of work. People think they obey the Sabbath on Sunday, but if you worked 5 days, you have disobeyed it. There are exactly 618 laws in the Torah, the first 5 books by Moses. If the law is still binding, you have alot of studying to do to try to obey all of them. Also, where is the NT command for animal sacrifice, which was a HUGE part if the law? THE LAW IS NO LONGER BINDING.

Are you really a pastor as your moniker suggests? If so, I am surprised that a pastor would make such a glaring theological blunder. In the first place, there 613 commandments. Secondly, you should be aware that the issue is not about whether or not specific commandments are binding or not. The entire law is 100% relevant to the Christian even if it is not 100% applicable. The issue is not about whether specific commandments given to national Israel are still applicable in the daily life and walk of a believer. The rightesouness of the law is still relevant and is fulfilled within the heart of the believer (Rom. 8:4).

[Botz]

The 'Law' is holy, righteous, just and true and it is the Law that has guided, kept and defined the nation of Israel over centuries...and today if a Jewish person truly believed and followed the Law, it would lead them to their Messiah which was the ultimate purpose that it was given to Israel in the first place...the Law has not been terminated or made redundant but has its finalization in Yeshua...and from then on everything stems from Him. The most natural thing in the world would be for a Jew to discover His Messiah through the Law...but the genesis of Christianity has helped gum up the works along with some of the modern day Judaism, detracting from the truth of Scripture and replacing it with the interpretations and thoughts of men.

[taylor30]

Well, so far 3 people have disagreed with my comments on this subject. Two of them in my opinion were quite rude in how they responded. Please brothers and sisters, we must avoid arguing like children. This is not what our LORD would have us do. Difference of opinion is fine and umderstandable, but we must do it in a spirit of love, as scripture teaches ALL THINGS must be done in love. I say nothing evil to anyone who disagrees with me on ANY subject. I welcome honest discussion, but not rudeness or deliberately trying to bait someone into an arguement.We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Let us truely speak to eachother as BROTHERS & SISTERS. GOD BLESS TO ALL.

I believe my original statement was misunderstood. If I wrote it in a confusing manner, I must take full responsiblity.

My error of 618 commandments was unintentional. Please do not question my Christianity simply because I typed the wrong number. 613 is correct. I didn't double check my full statement as I should have. My apologies.

I do NOT believe we are free to break the law. When I said the law was no longer binding, I meant the OT law only. We must remember that the OT law was given to Israel, not the world. There was much custom and tradition in OT lawthat clearly was for Israel to keep them separate from the pagan nations around them. It was even always addressed to Israel, not any other nations. Some covenants God made with all mankind, but the Mosaic Covenantwas made with Israel. Jesus alluded to the impossiblity of Christians trying to fullfill Jewish law when he spoke of new wine in old wineskins, and new patches on old garments. Since the Sabbath that I mentioned was addressed in the disagreements, may I remind you of several things.

#1. There is no NT command for Christians to keep the Sabbath.

#2. There is no warning in the NT to Christians about breaking the Sabbath.

#3. There is no indication that Paul or the other apostles continued to keep the Sabbath during their ministries. Do not mistake their opportunity to preach in Synagogue or Temple on Sabbath as the same as Keeping it.

Saying that the OT law is no longer binding by no means lets us off the hook. It has been stated that if you attempted to number the commands in the NT given by our LORD and the apostles, there are over 1,000. I argue that NT LAW IS BINDING, and NT law still clearly forbids things like Murder, Lying, Stealing, Sexual Sins, etc. The difference is the penalties in the NT are no longer death, and that the Ceremonial, Sacrificial, and Priestly laws WERE done away with. One must remember that there were 3 distinct categories of law, so if you believe the law is still in effect, you must specify which part. Clearly not the Sacrificial and Ceremonial. The temple no longer exists. Not the Sacrificial, since Christ was the final sacrifice. Only the moral could be argued as still binding, and since it is restated in the NT anyway, there is no need for arguement if one agrees that NT law is binding. On a final note of my point, you may find it interesting to find that of the 10 commandments, ONLY the 4th, or Sabbath, is not restated as a command for Christians in the NT. I will end here, but I welcome any comments in love, even of those who disagree. GOD BLESS.

[Bold Believer]

There was the ceremonial law which is referred to in NT Scripture as types and shadows. The things done were Christ-types. When Christ came, there was no longer any need to continue doing them because the reality had arrived. As Daniel 9 states, "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;..." God even destroyed the Temple at Jerusalem to prevent any more sacrifices. (This is one reason I don't believe that the Temple will literally be rebuilt. To reinstitute the sacrificial system is an insult to Christ.)

Then there is the moral law. The 10 Living Words (commandments if you prefer) and all those statutes which apply to the commandments. These are still binding in society. Christian nations should use them as templates upon which to design their legal system. At the inception of the US, we designed our legal system upon Christian ethic. Humanist ethic has since replaced it (beginning about in the 1970s) and we have murderers sitting in jail sucking up our tax money to feed and house them, thieves paying no restitution but sitting in jail sucking up our tax money to feed and house them, homosexuals running our government, pedophiles in jail sucking up our tax money, and so forth and so on. If we executed murderers and homosexuals and pedophiles upon conviction as Scripture tells us to do, and demanded thieves to pay restitution (and if they have nothing, they can work off the restitution in government work camps until the money is restored), we would have a better and I believe more efficient society.

[Guest shiloh357]

I do NOT believe we are free to break the law. When I said the law was no longer binding, I meant the OT law only.

More accurately, we are not bound to the commandments pertaining ritual purity, the sacrificial system or the commandments pertaining to civil law within God's theocracy (stoning adulterers, sabbath breakers, homosexuals, etc.).

We must remember that the OT law was given to Israel, not the world.

Yes, to a degree that is true. However, there is a signifcant portion that is clearly universal in terms of moral/ethical behavior.

There was much custom and tradition in OT lawthat clearly was for Israel to keep them separate from the pagan nations around them. It was even always addressed to Israel, not any other nations. Some covenants God made with all mankind, but the Mosaic Covenantwas made with Israel.

Now this is where I have to ask... Are you talking about law or covenant? They are not the same thing. The law (Torah) is God's commandments/instructions for living. The covenant (either old or new) is the means by which the law is administered.

Jesus alluded to the impossiblity of Christians trying to fullfill Jewish law when he spoke of new wine in old wineskins, and new patches on old garments.

Actually those parables pertain to the spiritual over against the ritualistic. In context, Jesus is defending His participation in the banquet held at the house of Levi (Matthew) on an extra-biblical fast day mandated by the religious leaders. So this was not discussion about the law, but about extra-biblical tradition and true godly spirtuality.

Saying that the OT law is no longer binding by no means lets us off the hook. It has been stated that if you attempted to number the commands in the NT given by our LORD and the apostles, there are over 1,000. I argue that NT LAW IS BINDING, and NT law still clearly forbids things like Murder, Lying, Stealing, Sexual Sins, etc. The difference is the penalties in the NT are no longer death, and that the Ceremonial, Sacrificial, and Priestly laws WERE done away with. One must remember that there were 3 distinct categories of law, so if you believe the law is still in effect, you must specify which part. Clearly not the Sacrificial and Ceremonial. The temple no longer exists. Not the Sacrificial, since Christ was the final sacrifice. Only the moral could be argued as still binding, and since it is restated in the NT anyway, there is no need for arguement if one agrees that NT law is binding. On a final note of my point, you may find it interesting to find that of the 10 commandments, ONLY the 4th, or Sabbath, is not restated as a command for Christians in the NT. I will end here, but I welcome any comments in love, even of those who disagree. GOD BLESS.

First of all. The Bible does not make any kind of false dichotomy between OT and NT law. Every commnandment of the NT is a fuller expression of the law given at Sinai. The commandment to love God and love our neighbors is expanded, augmented and elaborated upon in the NT, but it is never supercedied by a new law.

Secondly, the three categories of the Mosaic Law (Torah) are Ceremonial, Civil and Moral/Ethical.

Civil = Punishment, regulation of slavery, property rights, judicial/civil arbitration etc.

Ceremonial = Festivals, sacrifices, ritual purity, hygenic etc.

Moral/Ethical = Behavior, character, conduct etc.

The Sabbath was not restated, but that is not a cogent argument. There is also no repeat of the commadment against a man sleeping with His daughter-in-law. I don't think anyone would advance the absurd notion that since such a command is not given to Christians, it is okay to for men to sleep with their son's wives. Obviously, the Bible provides a moral paradigm that tells us that such behavior is sinful even if it is not explicitly mentioned in the NT.

The Sabbath is neither commanded nor commanded against. So there is no biblical authority given to us to say that such an observance by some believers is wrong or even sinful. There is no NT evidence that the apostles did not regularly keep that Sabbath. There is historical evidence that Christians kept both the Sabbath and the Passover until early in the 4th century. It was Constantine who mandated that Christians abandon the Sabbath.

I know of many godly Messianic Jewish people who observe the Sabbath and they do so as a loving expression of faith in Jesus/Yeshua.

[Lauri]

I do NOT believe we are free to break the law. When I said the law was no longer binding, I meant the OT law only. We must remember that the OT law was given to Israel, not the world. There was much custom and tradition in OT lawthat clearly was for Israel to keep them separate from the pagan nations around them. It was even always addressed to Israel, not any other nations. Some covenants God made with all mankind, but the Mosaic Covenantwas made with Israel. Jesus alluded to the impossiblity of Christians trying to fullfill Jewish law when he spoke of new wine in old wineskins, and new patches on old garments. Since the Sabbath that I mentioned was addressed in the disagreements, may I remind you of several things.

#1. There is no NT command for Christians to keep the Sabbath.

#2. There is no warning in the NT to Christians about breaking the Sabbath.

#3. There is no indication that Paul or the other apostles continued to keep the Sabbath during their ministries. Do not mistake their opportunity to preach in Synagogue or Temple on Sabbath as the same as Keeping it.

Saying that the OT law is no longer binding by no means lets us off the hook. It has been stated that if you attempted to number the commands in the NT given by our LORD and the apostles, there are over 1,000. I argue that NT LAW IS BINDING, and NT law still clearly forbids things like Murder, Lying, Stealing, Sexual Sins, etc. The difference is the penalties in the NT are no longer death, and that the Ceremonial, Sacrificial, and Priestly laws WERE done away with. One must remember that there were 3 distinct categories of law, so if you believe the law is still in effect, you must specify which part. Clearly not the Sacrificial and Ceremonial. The temple no longer exists. Not the Sacrificial, since Christ was the final sacrifice. Only the moral could be argued as still binding, and since it is restated in the NT anyway, there is no need for arguement if one agrees that NT law is binding. On a final note of my point, you may find it interesting to find that of the 10 commandments, ONLY the 4th, or Sabbath, is not restated as a command for Christians in the NT. I will end here, but I welcome any comments in love, even of those who disagree. GOD BLESS.

In the New Covenant God writes the 10 Commandments (His law) on our hearts. This is not a new law, God has not changed.

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Malachi 3:6 KJV

The over 1000 instruction given by the LORD that you refer to, I can only guess was because the people were dull of hearing and did not fully understand the LAW OF GOD, they in no way replace the 10 commandments written by GOD with his own finger in stone.

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Matthew 13:15 KJV

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31 KJV)

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; (Romans 2:15 KJV)

The Law of God in the NEW TESTAMENT

1st COMMANDMENT - Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matthew 4:10 KJV)

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

(Matthew 22:37-38 KJV)

2nd COMMANDMENT - Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. (Acts 17:29 KJV)

3rd COMMANDMENT - Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (2 Timothy 2:19 KJV)

4th COMMANDMENT - For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:8-11 KJV)

5th COMMANDMENT - Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) (Ephesians 6:2 KJV)

6th COMMANDMENT - Thou shalt not kill. (Romans 13:9)

7th COMMANDMENT - Thou shalt not commit adultery. (Matthew 19:18 & Romans 13:9)

8th COMMANDMENT - Thou shalt not steal. (Matthew 19:18 & Romans 13:9)

9th COMMANDMENT -Thou shalt not bear false witness. (Matthew 19:18 & Romans 13:9)

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Romans 13:9 KJV

He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Matthew 19:18 KJV

10th COMMANDMENT -What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (Romans 7:7 KJV)

All of these verses and more show that Jesus and his apostles kept God's commandments and taught the believer to obey all of God's 10 Commandments.

I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. (2 John 1:4 KJV)

And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. (2 John 1:5 KJV)

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. (2 John 1:6 KJV)