Does THIS Doctrine line up with God's Words?

[Isaiah 6:8]

James 2

[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Are we to ignore the writings of James? All of God's word MUST work together! If we find what 'appears' to be a contridition we must search God's word for a solution!

What most do not understand is that Paul speaks of TWO sets of laws throughout his writings.

Think about it for a moment......how can Paul keep God's laws, tell others to keep God's laws, tell us that God's laws are holy, just and good AND at the same time tell us that ALL of those same laws have been nailed to His cross?

When Paul speaks of the 'works/deeds' of the law he is NOT talking about the laws he called holy, just and good!

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My friend, you need to take the scripture in totality, as you have said. So lets take that scripture and put it in context... and I'll break it down.

James 2:14

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

This speaks to just idle belief, under the guise of faith. oh yes, be full, and then look at them and not give them any food? that is work-less, dead faith, one that even the demons have as he states further on.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

So, like you are stating that you can say you have faith but with out showing it do you?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

You see as it states in Hebrews 11, Abraham believed that God would raise his son from the dead, and that is why he was willing to sacrifice Issac. You see his faith was tested, and he proved it by his works. So in this way we prove that our faith is very real. You see the proof of the faith is in the works of faith. But they come from the faith. Abraham did not simply try to kill his son. He did it by faith. Not just works. You see again the core justification was by faith. The best way to put it is this. The works you speak of is simply Faith, in action.

So even the works are not works but again faith.

So we are saved by and justified by faith. We are then required to put our faith into action to prove its not just simple belief.

[Eccl12v13]

No, you are mistaken. James is not talking about justicifcation before God.

[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Who else would Abraham care about being justified before? Certainly not man? And who is it that declares justification? Man? No! God justifies man based upon mans actions!

Now....getting back to this.....

What most do not understand is that Paul speaks of TWO sets of laws throughout his writings.

Think about it for a moment......how can Paul keep God's laws, tell others to keep God's laws, tell us that God's laws are holy, just and good AND at the same time tell us that ALL of those same laws have been nailed to His cross?

When Paul speaks of the 'works/deeds' of the law he is NOT talking about the laws he called holy, just and good!

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Edited October 31, 2011 by Eccl12v13

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

In a nutshell it is this. Faith is more then simple belief, they are different. Faith believes yes, however it is belief put into action. You see stating that you have faith, and not showing it, not stepping up on the shoulders of the tightrope walker shows your faith to be dead. However, once you take the step of faith, you allow faith and grace to carry you over, you do nothing else. You do not do any work in and of yourself to make it across the rope.

You see we, like Abraham are justified by faith. Not by works. The Justification comes from the faith. The works are the outpouring and the showing of faith. You get works from faith. You do not get faith from works.

You use your muscles to make it over. Just believing without any action/work leaves you nowhere!

Did not God's word tell us that Abraham was justified by WORKS?

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"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" (Romans 4: 1-3)

[~candice~]

Romans 4 makes this crystal clear, Abe was justified by faith.

We do not need to do work to secure our salvation, it is wholly a gift. The works are an indication that the salvation has taken place, and have nothing to do with keeping or securing it.

I know this may be a hard one to understand but the gift that Jesus gave was not salvation! The gift that He gave ALLOWS each and everyone of us the chance at salvation!

Now that He has given us the means or way to salvation it is up to us to do what is needed to obtain it.

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OK - and where is the scripture for this? Ephesians clearly says it is a GIFT, not the chance at a gift.

[Isaiah 6:8]

Romans 4 makes this crystal clear, Abe was justified by faith.

We do not need to do work to secure our salvation, it is wholly a gift. The works are an indication that the salvation has taken place, and have nothing to do with keeping or securing it.

I know this may be a hard one to understand but the gift that Jesus gave was not salvation! The gift that He gave ALLOWS each and everyone of us the chance at salvation!

Now that He has given us the means or way to salvation it is up to us to do what is needed to obtain it.

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You see the problem with this is simply that if you believe this then there is nothing to separate Christianity from the rest of the world religions. You see only Christianity teaches a free gift of salvation. Every other religion on the planet teach that you must do some sort of work to achieve holiness/heaven/nirvana whatever.

[Eccl12v13]

OK - and where is the scripture for this? Ephesians clearly says it is a GIFT, not the chance at a gift.

Did a quick skim of Eph. and did not read where it says that salvation was a gift. Not saying that it is not there.....I just did not catch it. If you could provide chapter and verse please, that would be great.

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[~candice~]

OK - and where is the scripture for this? Ephesians clearly says it is a GIFT, not the chance at a gift.

Did a quick skim of Eph. and did not read where it says that salvation was a gift. Not saying that it is not there.....I just did not catch it. If you could provide chapter and verse please, that would be great.

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Eph 2

⁸ For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, ⁹ not of works, lest anyone should boast. ¹⁰ For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

[enoob57]

Romans 4 makes this crystal clear, Abe was justified by faith.

We do not need to do work to secure our salvation, it is wholly a gift. The works are an indication that the salvation has taken place, and have nothing to do with keeping or securing it.

I know this may be a hard one to understand but the gift that Jesus gave was not salvation! The gift that He gave ALLOWS each and everyone of us the chance at salvation!

Now that He has given us the means or way to salvation it is up to us to do what is needed to obtain it.

.

So you make The Son out ot be a liar!

"It is finished" meaning His Provision for The Way, The Truth, The Life was accomplished all that Was Given Him by The Father was secured unto eternal Life and that Life was to be in The Resurrected Son of God... Love, Steven

[Eccl12v13]

Eph 2

⁸ For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, ⁹ not of works, lest anyone should boast. ¹⁰ For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And what was the free gift? What was it that made it possible to remove the curse of the law? What is the ONLY thing that Jesus gave that made it possible for man to come from under his sins?

The above does not say salvation was the gift....it states that GRACE was the gift! Now.......here's the big question......

What is the grace that Jesus gave that answers ALL of the above questions? You cannot plug in the word 'salvation'! That does not answer the questions!

So...what was this grace that Jesus gave for all of mankind to have the right to eternal life?

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[Eccl12v13]

So you make The Son out ot be a liar!

"It is finished" meaning His Provision for The Way, The Truth, The Life was accomplished all that Was Given Him by The Father was secured unto eternal Life and that Life was to be in The Resurrected Son of God... Love, Steven

How so?

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