Does THIS Doctrine line up with God's Words?

[Guest]

God Rules

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

Trust Him

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These are the only people who get judged. Only unbelievers are judged....

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Matthew 16:26,27 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

Colossians 3:25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.

Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

Jesus Rewards

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 1 Corinthians 3:9-21

Trust In Him

[Guest]

No Shame

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Romans 1:16-19

No Fear

For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Luke 12:2-5

But God

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:15

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Are you saying that it is God's fault when someone doesn't go to heaven?

I believe that God's grace moves our will toward obedience, but we still must decide to accept or reject this grace.

Is this what you believe?

Beloved, Thank You For Your Thoughtful Reply

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

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Don't Blame God

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:13-18

And Don't Blame His Holy Book

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 2:19-21

And Don't Blame Evil Men Who Would Sit In The Seat Of Christ

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Timothy 2:5

For Jesus Alone Died For Your Sins

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10

Because He Loves You So

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 1 Thessalonians 5:8-11

Flee Those False Messiahs

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

And Open Your Holy Bible And Trust

For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalms 119:89

Ask In Jesus Name And He Will Wear Away The Rust

Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word. Psalms 119:80-81

Trust In Jesus

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Trust

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Jesus

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Believe

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

And Be Blessed Beloved

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

Love, Joe

[Guest]

These are the only people who get judged. Only unbelievers are judged.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Matthew 16:26,27 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

Colossians 3:25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.

Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

I'm not sure why you are posting scripture. You are not allowed to try and figure out what scripture means.

The only thing the verses you posted has done is reinforce what I said already. All of them speak not to a judgment as in some kind of sentence as to whether we go to heaven or hell. Once a person truly accepts Christ as their savior and devotes their life to Him, that person is saved and will go to heaven. It is a done deal. The only people who waste time fretting and worrying about it, as to how much penance they have to do or how much money they have to donate to charity or which TV shows they have to turn off, or which denomination they have to belong to are the ones who just don't understand the simplicity and security of salvation. Works get you squat, if done because you think it is buying you a better ticket to heaven, moving you up from coach to 1st class. Not so much. All the verses you posted are talking about is what rewards each of us will receive, if any. It helps to use the verses in context. No verse is a stand-alone.

Jesus Or Wrath

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

Believe It~!

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

The Catholic Church only came up because a protestant brought it up.

Yes. I have asked you to drop the subject. You have been promoting catholic talking points with out mentioning the church by name. Does not matter. I said drop it.

I would like to point out that the only reason I brought it up was because the passages that were being brought up in defense of a works-based salvation were not only being taken out of context, but were also being dishonestly positioned since they are not at all consistently maintained by those presenting them.

If we were to accept them as presented, it still wouldn't at all support the case that's being made here. Those presenting those passages do not affirm what the passages state but are trying to suggest something totally contrasting to the inference one could make about them at face value.

I was pointing out that chesterton doesn't, and cannot consistently affirm that the passages mean what he's here pretending which is valid to this discussion and requires no examination on his part about his church - it only forces him to clarify what he's actually suggesting the verse states not anything about the RCC.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

I've stated to you and others that I will correct falsehoods posted about the Church.

Tedious. All I did was quote from them to show that you don't actually mean what you're pretending to mean.

So back to the question, do you actually maintain that what we learn from the passage is that we have to work to avoid impurity, immorality and greed like you're pretending you mean? - or do you actually think that those things are purged off by something or other (for whatever reason you do, and that reason was only relevant in establishing that you don't affirm what you're pretending)?

Because if you actually believe the latter, well, so do protestants. Protestants just believe that it's Christ's grace, through faith not by works that we're purged... instead of whatever non-biblical alternatives that are out there.

So, it doesn't support your case at all - you're just equivocating.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Paul says that all men will be judged. You said that believers will not be judged.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

Romans 2:16

This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Evil deeds can land a man in Hell.

We must repent and prove our repentance by our deeds.

Acts 26:20

First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

Again, you're taking passages out of context. Believers are judged, certainly, but you're missing Colbalts' point in that we're not judged according to our works but instead we're judged without condemnation because we're cleared from the outset:

Romans 5:16~ "Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification"

Romans 8:1-2~ "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death"

In the day of judgment, evil deeds are recompensed to the dead because they have no intercessor, but for those without condemnation their deeds don't impact their salvation - they're only jduged according to whether or not their names were written in the book of life:

Rev. 20:12-15~ "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

[~candice~]

Is Chesterton even allowed to answer that question? I understand there are some topics that were firmly told to be stopped , so I don't think it's fair to ask questions of Chesterton for which he will be disciplined when he answers.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Is Chesterton even allowed to answer that question? I understand there are some topics that were firmly told to be stopped , so I don't think it's fair to ask questions of Chesterton for which he will be disciplined when he answers.

Sure he's allowed to answer.

He was saying that the passage from Ephesians 5:5 demonstrated we have to work towards our salvation. That passage is: "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

So, he can either affirm that this verse shows us that our works in avoiding immorality, impurity and greed get us to heaven or qualify that this is in conjunction with some sort of external purging (just as we believe has been done for us by Jesus). Nothing wrong with holding to either position here.

Now, the problem is that he can't do either one because of the implication that would have on what he actually believes. I highlighted the implication and notice that instead of then answering the question like he's allowed to do, he attacked the topic of the implication, which he's not allowed to do.

How he answers the actual challenge I presented won't in any way be a problem.

The only problem would be if I was right and he was being inconsistent and dishonest, pretending this passages affirms something that even he doesn't believe in order to advance a thinly-veiled agenda.

So far, he hasn't answer the question, he's only focused on the thing he's not permitted to do which is focus on the implication of the answer on his faith.

If his answers were consistent and honest then we could just talk about how and why we disagree without getting into backgrounds and dogmas, but that's not what's happened here. He's trying to make points that even he doesn't actually affirm and when investigated honestly and consistently at all only reveal a none-too-well-hidden agenda. Nothing I've asked is setting him up to speak on prohibitted topics at all. I don't want him to. I just want him at least try to make honest and consistent points.

Anyone from any background could answer this question without violating the terms... but if chesterton does so honestly we'll see that he simply has to concede the point, so I'm not holding my breath that he will.

[~candice~]

Okay this is turning into yet another Catholic doctrine thread. This is going to stop, now, or I will shut down the thread. No questions asked, and I do not care who started it. I saw this coming as I saw the direction Chesterton was going already with the catholic doctrine of salvation by works and faith, not faith alone.

Yes. I have asked you to drop the subject. You have been promoting catholic talking points with out mentioning the church by name. Does not matter. I said drop it.

Is Chesterton even allowed to answer that question? I understand there are some topics that were firmly told to be stopped , so I don't think it's fair to ask questions of Chesterton for which he will be disciplined when he answers.

Sure he's allowed to answer.

Seems that salvation by works was shut down.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Okay this is turning into yet another Catholic doctrine thread. This is going to stop, now, or I will shut down the thread. No questions asked, and I do not care who started it. I saw this coming as I saw the direction Chesterton was going already with the catholic doctrine of salvation by works and faith, not faith alone.

Yes. I have asked you to drop the subject. You have been promoting catholic talking points with out mentioning the church by name. Does not matter. I said drop it.

Is Chesterton even allowed to answer that question? I understand there are some topics that were firmly told to be stopped , so I don't think it's fair to ask questions of Chesterton for which he will be disciplined when he answers.

Sure he's allowed to answer.

Seems that salvation by works was shut down.

I see your point, but I didn't interpret it as a full stop to all discussion on the topic but as a warning against advancing the "catholic doctrine of salvation by works and faith, not faith alone", since Isaiah 6:8 is continuing to discuss the issues - after all, many protestants believe that salvation requires ongoing commitment.

But in either case, considering that he's just going right ahead saying things unprompted like "Evil deeds can land a man in Hell", then I don't see why he can't simply agree with whether or not immorality, impurity and greed will keep people out of heaven or qualify if there is some sort of purging that happens in addition or instead... especially since I know the answer is the latter and that's totally conducive to the terms, it's just tantamount to conceding the point.

I predict he'd rather continue to violate the terms than concede that the point, but I hope he proves me wrong.