Praying for the Dead

[oak]

There is something that caught my eye in reading Shiloh’s post. Shiloh considers certain things not to be prayer. For instance, Shiloh writes: “[about Paul’s remarks in the epistle as being] common hebraic styled blessing…hebraic expression meant to express Paul's gratitude to Onesiphorus and by extension to his surviving family for the good things Onesiphorus….” I feel that is at the least is a form of prayer

No, because Paul was not talking to God. He simply expressed his own blessing on Onesiphorus and his family. Paul did not say, "I will pray to God that He extend mercy to Onesiphorus." He was simply expressing his gratitude for Onesiphorus and by extension, his family as well. It is important to try and read more into the text than is there.

What is man's own (without God) blessing or gratitude toward's another man worth? You of all people should know the answer.

In my opinion the action taken by the soldier, definitely resembles and deserves a prayer of thanks

But that is not indispute. What I said was that thanking God for man's action is not a prayer for the man, but a prayer of gratitude for the man's actions. You are expressing thanks, which is totally different than interceding on his behalf.

You've got me a bit confused (easy now, due to medications) because I never meant the prayer of thanks to be read as a prayer of intercession. So a prayer of gratitude to the dead man which only God can hear, is ok, by you?

Finally, I would be puzzled if any form of our communication with God is not a type of prayer – even when we just talk to Him - excluding, of course things such as expressing anger, doubt etc

That's kind of a red herring is that I did not say there is any form of communication with God that cannot be considered prayer.

I know you didn't say it but think about it - how do we communicate with God?

[Guest shiloh357]

There is something that caught my eye in reading Shiloh’s post. Shiloh considers certain things not to be prayer. For instance, Shiloh writes: “[about Paul’s remarks in the epistle as being] common hebraic styled blessing…hebraic expression meant to express Paul's gratitude to Onesiphorus and by extension to his surviving family for the good things Onesiphorus….” I feel that is at the least is a form of prayer

It isn't.

What is man's own (without God) blessing or gratitude toward's another man worth? You of all people should know the answer.

I place a great deal of value on someone's thoughtfulness to wish the best for me. It is worth alot.

You've got me a bit confused (easy now, due to medications) because I never meant the prayer of thanks to be read as a prayer of intercession. So a prayer of gratitude to the dead man which only God can hear, is ok, by you?

For one thing, it is not scriptural to pray to dead people. In fact, God considers it an abomination. I express my public gratitude to his family, but not to him. He is dead. He cannot hear me. If you are praying to dead people, you are not following Scripture.

I know you didn't say it but think about it - how do we communicate with God?

But you are talking about praying to dead people, now. That is not communciation with God.

[enoob57]

Here is the Scriptural understanding of Shiloh's response about permanence of choice after death Lk 16:19-31

[oak]

name='shiloh357' timestamp='1322705855' post='1745596']

It isn't.

It is! Paul states, "May the Lord grant him (Onesiphorus) mercy on that Day (Judgment Day)."

I place a great deal of value on someone's thoughtfulness to wish the best for me. It is worth alot.

Is there a difference in your opinion how a believer and non-believer approaches gratitude or well wishing as well as accepting it?

For one thing, it is not scriptural to pray to dead people. In fact, God considers it an abomination. I express my public gratitude to his family, but not to him. He is dead. He cannot hear me. If you are praying to dead people, you are not following Scripture. [Awhile back you wrote:] "What I said was that thanking God for man's action is not a prayer for the man, but a prayer of gratitude for the man's actions."

This is certainly different from just praying to his family. And again, I said, a prayer to the dead that "only God can hear." I think that indicates that it's involving God. However I will use "for" instead of "to" even if I say God can only hear the prayer

But you are talking about praying to dead people, now. That is not communciation with God.

I'm not nor was I ever talking about praying to the dead (unless it's a typo or being misread), I stated that the prayer is directed to God. Either way do you believe in a prayer of gratitude for a dead man's actions to God?

[oak]

Here is the Scriptural understanding of Shiloh's response about permanence of choice after death Lk 16:19-31

Thanks Enoob, but I think Misslamb quoted your scripture in post 2.

Anyway one last question; most of you believe the dead are really dead then how do you understand the following scripture: “…but made alive in the spirit, in which he (Christ ) went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God patience waited in the days of Noah…. Pt 3:18-20

[enoob57]

Here is the Scriptural understanding of Shiloh's response about permanence of choice after death Lk 16:19-31

Thanks Enoob, but I think Misslamb quoted your scripture in post 2.

Anyway one last question; most of you believe the dead are really dead then how do you understand the following scripture: “…but made alive in the spirit, in which he (Christ ) went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God patience waited in the days of Noah…. Pt 3:18-20

OOOOPs! sorry Lamb!Nothing like a boo boo to get the humbled pie in ones gullet....

[Ephesians__6_24]

Brother Joe, I read you clearly. But in the tradition of the early chosen people, the Jews, did they not put shrines up for the prophets without making them idols and did they prey for the dead in hope and mercy from God? Are all of them not in the “light?” Why didn’t Christ say that Shrines to the Prophets are wrong.

Love Brother Oak

PS If I'm not correct about the accounts I cite, anyone is free to correct me.

Judges 8:33

And it came to pass, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after Baalim, and made Baalberith their god.

[Ephesians__6_24]

Shiloh, thank you for enumerating your beliefs on prayer for the dead for it will help with my conversation with my OSAS friend. Also, I brought up intersession, by mistake and I would appreciate it to not be part of this discussion.

I will assume that when Paul prayed for Onesiphorus, you feel Onesiphorus was both alive and in another location? Am I correct?

Lastly, I was wondering what is your approach to people you may have loved and died in Christ? Do you ever think about them or thank God they were in your life? Or do you just put them out of your mind. I recently heard that in the Iraq war a soldier in order to save the men around him fell on a grenade, to save them from death. If you were one of the survivors of this event, would you thank God for his actions? I don’t think you would easily be able to put that event out of your mind. And though the action has nothing to do with your salvation, would you make an effort not to pray or mention anything about him in your communications with God?

Ruth 1

³And Elimelech Naomi's husband died; and she was left, and her two sons.

⁴And they took them wives of the women of Moab; the name of the one was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth: and they dwelled there about ten years.

⁵And Mahlon and Chilion died also both of them; and the woman was left of her two sons and her husband.

⁶Then she arose with her daughters in law, that she might return from the country of Moab: for she had heard in the country of Moab how that the LORD had visited his people in giving them bread.

⁷Wherefore she went forth out of the place where she was, and her two daughters in law with her; and they went on the way to return unto the land of Judah.

⁸And Naomi said unto her two daughters in law, Go, return each to her mother's house: the LORD deal kindly with you, as ye have dealt with the dead, and with me.

⁹The LORD grant you that ye may find rest, each of you in the house of her husband. Then she kissed them; and they lifted up their voice, and wept.

Ruth and Orpah dealt kindly with the dead...

"dealing kindly" with the dead, what does this mean?

- Did Abraham deal kindly with the dead (his wife Sarah)?

Genesis 23

¹And Sarah was an hundred and seven and twenty years old: these were the years of the life of Sarah.

²And Sarah died in Kirjatharba; the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan: and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her.

³And Abraham stood up from before his dead, and spake unto the sons of Heth, saying,

⁴I am a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a buryingplace with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.

⁵And the children of Heth answered Abraham, saying unto him,

⁶Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.

⁷And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth. ⁸And he communed with them, saying...

Ecclesiastes 7

¹A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

²It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.

³Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.

⁴The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.

Concerning what to do about the dead...

it says:

Ecclesiastes 7

¹⁰Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this.

Genesis 50

¹And Joseph fell upon his father's face, and wept upon him, and kissed him.

²And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians to embalm his father: and the physicians embalmed Israel.

³And forty days were fulfilled for him; for so are fulfilled the days of those which are embalmed: and the Egyptians mourned for him threescore and ten days.

⁴And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, If now I have found grace in your eyes, speak, I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying,

⁵My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again.

⁶And Pharaoh said, Go up, and bury thy father, according as he made thee swear.

⁷And Joseph went up to bury his father: and with him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his house, and all the elders of the land of Egypt,

Compare Genesis 50:4 "when the days of his mourning were past" with Jacob mourning for his Son Joseph...

Genesis 37

³⁴And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.

³⁵And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Ephesians__6_24

[Ephesians__6_24]

Here is the Scriptural understanding of Shiloh's response about permanence of choice after death Lk 16:19-31

Thanks Enoob, but I think Misslamb quoted your scripture in post 2.

Anyway one last question; most of you believe the dead are really dead then how do you understand the following scripture: “…but made alive in the spirit, in which he (Christ ) went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God patience waited in the days of Noah…. Pt 3:18-20

1 Peter 3

¹⁷For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

¹⁸For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

¹⁹By which also [Christ] went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Was Jesus Christ in Noah?

1 Peter 1:10-11 states that the spirit of Christ was in the prophets...

2 Peter 2:4

God cast the angels that sinned down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

- When did this happen?

- Did God casting the angels that sinned down to hell happen before the flood?

- It says that Satan drew a third of the stars... Revelation 12:4 (Angels are stars - Deut. 4:19)

- Satan tempted Eve... Genesis chapter 3.

- Therefore, was iniquity found in Satan [Ezek. 28:15] before the account in Genesis ch. 3?

Mark 1

²¹And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

²²And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

²³And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

²⁴Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

²⁵And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.

²⁶And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

²⁷And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Mark 1:21-27 indicates that Christ heralded to an unclean spirit imprisoned.

- 2 Peter 2:5 indicates that Noah was a preacher of righteousness.

²⁰Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Mark 9

²⁶And the spirit cried, and rent [the child] sore, and came out of [the child]: and [the child] was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

²⁷But Jesus took [the child] by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

²⁸And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

²⁹And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

Mark 9:29 Indicates that a dumb spirit came not out but by prayer and fasting...

- Did Noah do much prayer and fasting for the souls? (1Pet. 3:21)

- 2 Peter 2:5 indicates that Noah was a preacher of righteousness.

Mark 5

¹And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.

²And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

³Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:

⁴Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

⁵And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

⁶But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

⁷And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

⁸For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

⁹And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

¹⁰And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

¹¹Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

¹²And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

¹³And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

Mark 5:1-13 indicates that Christ has authority over the unclean spirits...

and that the unclean spirits were "in" the man... (v. 8)

- Does Christ have the authority to tell an unclean spirit to enter into a man, as he told them to go into the swine? (Psalm 78:49, James 4:12)

- Christ is God - 1 Tim. 3:16.

²¹The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

²²Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.