Preterism versus Futurism

[Floatingaxe]

not whisked away to some mystical place called heaven.

Prove heaven is a mystical place--use scripture.

[Bold Believer]

AS to the statement that preterism and futurism can't both be true, for me as a partial preterist, that is not so. Both ARE true. The prophecies concerning the Days of Vengeance are fulfilled, but the Second Coming (with the accompying events: resurrection, rapture, burning up of the earth, judgment of the wicked, judgment of Satan, renewed Heaven and Earth and the resettling of the Holy City in its new place) is future.

Where is the proof that we have experienced the so-called "Days of Vengeance"? God hasn't even begun to pour out His vengeance!

Luke 21:20-22, from the mouth of Jesus Himself. Will you call the Holy One of Israel a liar?

[ENOCH2010]

not whisked away to some mystical place called heaven.

Prove heaven is a mystical place--use scripture.

The heavenly city described in Revelation that people expect to spend eternity in is clearly shown to be coming DOWN from the sky to be place on the Earth. Were not going there,it and the Lord are coming to us.

[Retrobyter]

If you please, what is the name of your book? You can send it to me privately, if you wish. Thanks.

There's a link in my signature below.

Okay, thanks!

If you would please look up the Hebrew of Isaiah 13, you will find that the stars and the constellations can still be seen, but not clearly, and that has to do with their COLOR! It's not that they can't be seen. Now, in the prophecies warning against the coming of Asshur (Assyria) and Bavel (Babylon), the wording is different: there, the sun, moon, and stars are darkened by reason of the smoke in the air. Not so in these prophecies.

The fact that the sun, moon and stars are different shows that these are taking place at different times. God's wrath will be swift and severe, but it won't be poured out all at once. It will be more like waves of judgment, as seen in the seals, trumpets and bowls. You may not believe in the rapture as some don't, but this doesn't mean that it won't happen. God is not bound by what men may believe or not believe. All of these prophecies will be fulfilled according to His plan, purpose and will, whether we can understand them or not. So, I would not be so quick to eliminate things based on our understanding or misunderstanding. For just as Israel was watching for Christ when He came the first time, very few of them were able to receive Him, because He came in a way that they were not expecting. The Scriptures were there, but they were eyeing the wrong ones. Instead of observing the Scriptures that foretold of a babe in a manger that would ultimately be a sacrifice for the sins of the world, they were observing the scriptures telling of their mighty deliverer, a conquerring King, which we know now is the second coming.

They had no way of knowing that He would come and die, or be returning again some 2000 years later, for Christ was a great mystery and concealed in the Old Testament. We can easily see this now, after the fact. But now, we are waiting for Him to return. We know from scripture that history was designed to repeat itself. And now, Paul tells us that the rapture (our catching away or being snatched or whatever you may call it) is a profound mystery. So I would not be so quick to discount this just because we don't have a firm grasp or understanding of it. The scriptures are there, so we should count on it happening, because it will. It's guaranteed by God's Word!

I don't disbelieve in a "rapture" (harpazo), I just mistrust when some place the "rapture" among the other prophecies. I also believe that most Christians have the wrong PURPOSE for the "rapture," which I believe contributes to the reasons why they place the "rapture" occurring at the wrong time.

The apostle Paul also warned us that the time would come when men would not endure sound doctrine, but would instead teach myths. Now as the time draws near to His second coming, Christ, Himself, has repeatedly warned us to keep watch and be ready. What did He mean by this exactly? Did you know that each time He gave this warning it was in His parables? That's where many clues have been hidden. Daniel was told that the words were shut up and sealed until the time of the end, but modern scholars have ignored that first part, and instead they grabbed hold of the second part that says; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase, even to the time of the end, which they assume is referring to modern technology. But Daniel was also told that the wise would know, but the foolish wouldn't understand, which is alluding to the parables in the New Testament, which is the foretold increase of knowledge. So not only did Christ continue Daniel's prophecy and answer the questions he had about the things he was not able to understand, but He also hid many clues in His parables about the mystery of His second coming.

"And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." (Luke 8:10)

I find this very ironic! This verse is parallel to Matthew 13:

Matthew 13:10-17

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

KJV

And, Matthew 13 contains 7 parables all about the "Kingdom of heaven." The "Kingdom of God" or "God's Kingdom" is that Kingdom that will come when Yeshua` returns to earth as the Messiah to be King of Isra'el and is finally accepted by Isra'el as their King. Thus, since it is the Messiah who returns to earth from the sky, this is also called the "Kingdom from the sky." Yeshua`s parables in Matthew 13 are all about the Messianic Kingdom yet to come during that time which many call the Millennium (Greek: "chilia etee"; Latin: "mille annum"; English "a thousand years"). With the exception of the first parable, none of these parables have to do with the present age. They all are talking about various aspects of the Messiah's Kingdom.

Furthermore, the conclusion of these parables introduces yet one more parable:

Matthew 13:51-53

51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.

KJV

J. Vernon McGee actually said that he wished they had answered "No" so that we could get in on the meanings of these parables, but they aren't that hard to understand once you remember that the Bible is about the Jews and the prophecies that God gave to the nation Isra'el.

And, PLEASE! Don't resort to the "teaching myths" or such pettiness when someone doesn't agree with you. It's not becoming for a Christian to say.

2 Tim. 4:3-4

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I'm not sure why the Lord called me to write this book, especially when I wasn't a writer to begin with, nor did I have the slightest bit of interest in becoming a writer. But when I got saved 22 years ago, the Lord told me I was going to write. At that time I didn't even know what Bible prophecy was, and I wouldn't for another year or so. Then in 1990 someone told me about an interesting book. Long story short, after I read it, that was the beginning of a keen interest that started to develop in me about the rapture. After 21 years of studying this subject, and 7 years writing this book, it will finally be released officially in two weeks. I have a hunch that because of Paul's warning above, many have been deceived by all of the false assumptions, misconceptions and myths being taught by many modern scholars today, which I untangle as many of these as I can in the first part of my book. This is the only reason I can think of that He would call a non-writer to write, and because He chooses the things that are not to nullify the things that are (1 Cor. 1:25-29).

Not to over-hype this book, because the readers will ultimately be the ones to decide, but it's going to blow these scholar's minds, as the Lord has poured me out a double portion. This book unveals not just one, but two brand new theories, which is why my editor wrote in the teaser that it leads to a watershed moment in biblical prophecy.

But rest assured, it was never my intention to start a new theory at all. I simply discovered a mistake that scholars made about the increase of knowledge and then one thing led to another. Then as I was explaining what it actually is, I started breaking it down, which led right into a brand new rapture theory. It kind of seems like it was an accident to me, but I believe the Lord must have known all along where this would lead. I was the one that didn't know and I was completely surprised! In fact, I didn't even realize it was a new rapture theory until I was already finished writing this book.

Cool! Look, I can relate. God has shown me a thing or two through the years, particularly from 1978 on. Just, again, PLEASE don't lump me in with the "teachers having itching ears turning to fables!"

Actually, I agree with ENOCH2010; the "Rapture" is part and parcel with the Second Coming. Based on your understanding of "the kingdom of heaven," I take it that you believe that this will occur in some realm called "Heaven," right? Sorry, but there's NO SUCH PLACE! We are NEVER instructed to anticipate "going to Heaven!" We are instructed, rather, to anticipate the RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES and the RESURRECTION OF OUR LOVED ONES!

There's much involved in understanding the Scriptures on this matter: First, it is a common misunderstanding that we are three-part creatures consisting of "body, soul, and spirit," as though these three parts are three separate things that are then combined. Some believe that, when we die, our spirits and souls go to be with God and our bodies are buried in the ground. That's only partially and vaguely correct. The Greek word "sooma" (some write "soma") is translated "body." The Greek word "psuchee" is translated as "soul," and the Greek word "pneuma" is translated as "spirit." The Hebrew word "geviya`" is translated "body." The Hebrew word "nefesh" (some write "nephesh") is translated as "soul," and the Hebrew word "ruach" is translated as "spirit."

When you look closely at the words "pneuma" and "ruach," you will find that they are also translated as "wind" or "breath" as a "blowing" or "blast of air." When you look closely at the words "psuchee" and "nefesh," you will find that they mean "a breathing creature" or "one that breathes." Looking at the two sets of three words in both languages, one will discover that it is the "psuchee"/"nefesh" that is the LITERAL COMBINATION of the "sooma"/"geviya`" and the "pneuma"/"ruach." Concretely speaking, the only way that one can be a "breathing creature" is to have the "breath" combined with the "body!" If one wants to think of the "pneuma"/"ruach" as an "immaterial part" of a human being, then the "psuchee"/"nefesh" ("soul") must be a combination of the immaterial part ("pneuma"/"ruach"/"spirit") and the material part ("sooma"/"geviya`"/"body") of a human being. Therefore, "soul" = "spirit" + "body." When the "spirit" leaves the "body," it is no longer a "soul." I believe that the primary understanding IS the concrete, literal understanding of these words, and that they are strictly referring to the "breath" in a "body" making man a "living soul" - a "living breather." These Hebrew and Greek words are used for both human beings and for animals. The fact that human beings are "souls" is NOT what separates us from the animals! What separates us from the animals is the "IMAGE of God!"

As proof, if one will look up the Hebrew of Gen. 1:20, 21, 24, 30; and 2:19, one will find that the word "nefesh" is used for the animals. Thus, animals have "souls," too!

If one will look up the Hebrew of Gen. 6:17; 7:15, 22; and Eccl. 3:21, one will find that the word "ruach" is used for the animals. Thus, animals have "spirits," too!

There's no real mystery here. The same God who created human beings also created the animals, and we were BOTH created the same way, with the exception that God took special pains to create the Man and not just speaking him into existence.

A better understanding of this, gives us a clearer understanding of verses that use these words, either in Hebrew or in Greek: For instance, one will have a better understanding of Hebrews 4:12:

Hebrews 4:12

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

KJV

The author of Hebrews is simply saying that the Word of God is ALIVE and POWERFUL and sharper than any two-edged sword, slicing even down to the dividing apart of the breathing creature from his breath, and of the joints from the marrow, and is someone who can tell the difference between the thoughts one has and the intentions of the core of one's being.

Also, the "kingdom of heaven" simply means the "kingdom from the sky," because the Greek word "ouranos," translated "heaven," means "the sky!" One can see this in the Greek of Matthew 16:1-4. (The same can also be said for the Hebrew.)

As far as the "wedding supper of the Lamb" occurring in "Heaven," or "the kingdom of heaven" as you add, there's a problem. A Jewish wedding is always accompanied with wine, as one can see at Yeshua`s first miracle at the wedding in Cana. HOWEVER, Yeshua` said,

Matthew 26:29

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

KJV

Mark 14:25

25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

KJV

Luke 22:18

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

KJV

This is not in some mythical, mystical, ethereal place called "Heaven," my friend; this is when HE RETURNS! When He comes back to this earth, THEN He will drink it new (FRESH from a new harvest) with His disciples!

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

You are saying that the rapture won't have any signs and we would already be like them (the messengers) because you are assuming that the rapture happens first! However, if what ENOCH2010 and I are saying is correct, then the rapture is NOT what happens first, although it will be among the first things to happen at the Second Coming. The messengers (aggeloi or "angels") are there to gather us - to conduct us - to where we are going. Furthermore, we are NOT being gathered to be taken to "Heaven"; we are being gathered to be conducted to "ISRA'EL!" The Scriptures NEVER SAY that we go to "Heaven" following the Rapture! Indeed, the "Rapture" (Greek: "harpazo" meaning "to be snatched away," NOT "caught up") is a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to get us to where we need to be in the skies over Isra'el!

Yeshua` never says He will come back to take us to "Heaven"; He DOES say, however, that He will come back "with ten thousands of His saints" to fight against the nations who come against Isra'el and will DELIVER them! He will come back to RESCUE ISRA'EL! They are His FAMILY! LITERALLY!!

Finally, I'm not going to say a whole lot about it now, but the "abomination of desolation" is ALREADY STARTED (it started in the first century) and will continue until the "desolate," national Isra'el, are no longer "desolate" when they plead with God and say to His Messiah Yeshua`, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" "Welcome, Comer in the authority of ADONAI!"

It appears that you are a post-tribber here, if you believe the rapture occurs as Christ is returning in the second coming. Although the post-trib. theory is much closer to the truth than the pre-trib theory, it has problems of it's own, which I also mention in my book.

There are actually three heavens. I'm no scientist, but the first heaven is basically the air that we breathe and the earths atmosphere where birds are seen flying around. Then in the second heaven the air is thinner, this is where the clouds are and stretches to the next level, maybe where the ozone layer is or maybe the stratosphere? We can hear the sonic boom when the space shuttle goes through it. Then above that is the third heaven, which goes on and on forever, trillions and trillions of light years away. God's throne is out there in this third heaven somewhere.

But in the rapture, Christ will leave the third heaven, come in a cloud or down to the second heaven, where He will send His angels to gather His elect from the earth, which is the first heaven or the air just above the earths surface. We will meet Him there, in the air and in the clouds, in the second heaven, and in plain view of the inhabitants of the earth. Don't be surprised if this is where the wedding supper of the Lamb will take place as well. It may seem strange to us now, but at that moment, their bodies will be changed and no longer be bound by the law of gravity. Not that it has to be there, but it's very possible. But no matter where the wedding supper takes place, those in attendance will be in the kingdom of heaven forever more.

Luke 12:36-37

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

But the kingdom of heaven, this is the promised kingdom that will come at the second coming. It is also in our hearts as we look forward to it by faith. Christ is currently setting up His kingdom, and He has been since He went away after His resurrection, as He told His disciples that He was going away to prepare a place for them in His Father's house. He will literally return to rule and reign with His saints on this earth for 1000 years and then the resurrection of the dead will take place, when the wicked unbelievers are judged at the great white throne, but of His kingdom there will be no end.

And finally, we still disagree over the abomination of desolation that Christ mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. We agree that there are more than one abominations, and more than one desolations of Jerusalem (Daniel 9). However, the abomination of desolation He mentioned in the Olivet Discourse is (singular, not plural), it is in Daniel 12, and it takes place at the time of the end of this age, not long before His second coming.

Don't confuse the establishment of His Kingdom in the Millennium with the Kingdom in the eternal state. While it is true that "of His Kingdom there is no end," it is equally true that "He shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God, even the Father, when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power," ending with "the last enemy ... death!" There's a passage in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 that gives a clearer picture of the timing of the KingdomS:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

So, putting the prophecies together, Yeshua` the Messiah of God starts off being the King of Y'hudah (Judah). He will soon graduate that to being King of Isra'el and from there include vassal states after His war tribunal (Matt. 25:31-46). From there, He will become King of kings and Lord of lords (literally a King to other kings and a Master to other masters), becoming an World Emperor, like Nebuchadnezzar! Finally, at the end of the Millennium, He will have subdued all of His enemies and gained mastery over them. Then, after death itself is finally defeated after the Great White Throne Judgment, He will turn His Empire over to His Father, and He will go back to reigning over Isra'el, for, as you say, we have this prophecy at His conception:

Luke 1:30-33

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (pronounced "Yay-SOOS" in Greek).

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

KJV

The passage in 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is primarily about the Resurrections; however, it also explains the timing of events over the course of the ages to come (from the Jewish perspective in literature). Furthermore, we can harmonize this with Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-3 and harmonize them both with the time line established by Peter in 2 Peter 3:3-13:

Revelation 20:1-21:3

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

KJV

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

The Rev. Dr. C. I. Scofield, in his Scofield Reference Edition of the KJV, was one of the first places I saw the typical belief about the "third heaven" of 2 Cor. 12:1-4 explained: He said, WITHOUT A SCRIPTURE REFERENCE btw, "First heaven - of clouds, second heaven - of stars, third heaven - God's abode" in the center marginal notes on page 1238. I doubt that he was the first to come up with this spatial relationship, but he CERTAINLY propagated the theory through the use of his Reference Edition!

Your explanation is also a variant on the spatial relationship theory.

I like Peter's explanation better:

(Verse 5) First heaven (and earth) - before the Flood,

(Verse 6) - the Flood,

(Verse 7) Second heaven (and earth) - now, between the Flood and the Fire,

(Verses 7 through 12) - the Fire,

(Verse 13), Third heaven (and earth) - after the Fire, "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

Again, the "heaven" is simply the "sky," the "atmosphere." It's where the birds fly! This is true for the Hebrew word "shaamayim" (Gen. 1:20) and the Greek word "ouranos" (Rev. 19:17)! ("Mesouraneema" simply means "in the middle of ouranos" or "in the middle of the sky.") Each language had its own way of talking about beyond the atmosphere; Hebrew used the phrase "shmeey ha-shaamayim" (the heaven of the heavens), and the Greek text used the word "epouranios" meaning "(belonging to) above-the-sky." Thus, Peter is talking about a third heaven or third sky CHRONOLOGICALLY, rather than spatially, related! It was to THIS "third heaven" or "third sky" or "third atmosphere" that Paul, or whoever Paul was writing about, was "snatched away!"

The primary focus of both the Old and New Testaments (the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah) is this earth's biosphere! Remember: they were an agrarian society; they were farmers and herdsmen! Their word "erets" in Hebrew or "gee" (pronounced "gay") in Greek both meant the SOIL! the GROUND! the DIRT! the LAND! not usually the whole globe! Their word "shaamayim" in Hebrew or "ouranos" in Greek both meant the SKY! the AIR WE BREATHE! the ATMOSPHERE in which the clouds produced weather and the birds fly! not usually extended to include outer space unless they were looking at the light of the sun, moon, and stars THROUGH the "sky" and how those lights affected their seasons and holy days and feasts! Even in the Creation of Genesis 1 and 2, it wasn't "heaven and earth" as "the immaterial 'Heaven' and the material universe," nor was it "'outer space' and our planet earth"; it was "the gaseous portions and the solid/liquid portions of our earth, the "skies" and the "ground!"

"Paradise, btw, is a transliteration of the Greek word "paradeisos," which means a "PARK," like the Elysian Fields of Greek mythology! It comes from the Hebrew word "pardeec," pronounced "par-DACE," which also means a "PARK of TREES," much as Gan-Eden (the Garden of Eden) was! It is either a reference to the New Jerusalem itself or to the parks, which include the Tree of Life, within the New Jerusalem (Rev. 2:7; 22:2, 14)!

Sorry this was so much, but there was so much to pass on!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Floatingaxe.

John 14:2-4

2In My Father's house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.

3And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.

4And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.

Carefully review the Greek of this passage. It may SEEM like Yeshua` was saying that he was going to take them to His Father's house, BUT IT ONLY SEEMS THAT WAY! After he receives them to Himself, He doesn't SAY where He is going next!

His Father's house is NOT "Heaven!" His Father's house is the New Jerusalem! Observe:

Revelation 21:1-3

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

KJV

Revelation 21:22-22:5

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

KJV

The Temple is repeatedly called "ha-beit Elohiym," in the Tanakh (the OT), "the house of God." There's no "house of God" within the city because the CITY ITSELF IS the House of God! The word translated "tabernacle" is the Greek word "skeenee," meaning "tent." However, it's not just an ordinary tent for in Hebrews 11 we read,

Hebrews 11:8-16

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

KJV

Then later, the author added,

Hebrews 12:22-24

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

KJV

In both Hebrews passages, the word "heavenly" (in 11:16 and 12:22) is from the Greek word "epouranios," meaning "(pertaining to) above-the-sky," a completely different word than "ouranos," meaning just the "sky" or the "atmosphere." This word means "from above the atmosphere" or "from outer space!" This is the Jerusalem from outer space, a "better country" from outer space!

Furthermore, the word "tabernacles" (in 11:9) is from the Greek word "skeenee!" Avraham was a Bedouin prince! a Sheik! He followed his herds as they moved from area to area in search of vegetation to eat. His tent WAS his house, and it was not some small pup tent, either! It was HUGE! Furthermore, his would have been the primary tent in a village of tents because we read,

Genesis 14:8-14

8 And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same is Zoar;) and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim;

9 With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five.

10 And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.

11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.

12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.

13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eschol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

KJV

That's just the warriors in his house that he trained for battle! That doesn't count the maidservants or younger slaves who were not quite strong enough or trained well enough for battle! He had to separate from Lowt earlier because their herds that they both independently owned were overgrazing the area where they were living when they were together! They couldn't live in the same lands!

Thus, the New Jerusalem is God's HOUSE much as Avraham's tent was HIS house!

So, Yeshua` was saying, "I'm off to build my Father's House, adding rooms on for all of you. But, I will return and collect you to myself, and we'll be together forever from then on." WE DON'T GO TO OUR FATHER'S HOUSE! IT COMES TO US! He did NOT say that He was taking us back to His Father's House, He was just saying we'd be together with Him from then on. Be very careful making assumptions about what you are reading. Other preachers and teachers probably gave you the idea at some point in your history, but they, too, made the same assumptions - the same mistakes!

[Guest]

.... Thus, the New Jerusalem is God's HOUSE much as Avraham's tent was HIS house!

So, Yeshua` was saying, "I'm off to build my Father's House, adding rooms on for all of you. But, I will return and collect you to myself, and we'll be together forever from then on." WE DON'T GO TO OUR FATHER'S HOUSE! IT COMES TO US! He did NOT say that He was taking us back to His Father's House, He was just saying we'd be together with Him from then on. Be very careful making assumptions about what you are reading. Other preachers and teachers probably gave you the idea at some point in your history, but they, too, made the same assumptions - the same mistakes!

OK

And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes. Exodus 28:17-21

And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. Revelation 21:19-20

Dear One

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

Make No Mistake

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:5-7

This Old Earth And The Cosmos Set In Place Around It

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

Will All Be Gone

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:5

Puff ! ! !

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

And Make No Mistake Beloved

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. Isaiah 66:22

All Will Be A New Creation And All Of The Remnant Of Israel Will Be Restored

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Isaiah 45:17

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

[Floatingaxe]

AS to the statement that preterism and futurism can't both be true, for me as a partial preterist, that is not so. Both ARE true. The prophecies concerning the Days of Vengeance are fulfilled, but the Second Coming (with the accompying events: resurrection, rapture, burning up of the earth, judgment of the wicked, judgment of Satan, renewed Heaven and Earth and the resettling of the Holy City in its new place) is future.

Where is the proof that we have experienced the so-called "Days of Vengeance"? God hasn't even begun to pour out His vengeance!

Luke 21:20-22, from the mouth of Jesus Himself. Will you call the Holy One of Israel a liar?

Luke 21:20-22's reference is simply a precursor to the true Day of the Lord and His vengeance upon the wicked nations of the Earth---yet to come.

No, God is not a liar, but men are, and they are also easy prey for the deceptions of Satan concerning these matters, and as such assist him in the advancement of his lies.

[Floatingaxe]

not whisked away to some mystical place called heaven.

Prove heaven is a mystical place--use scripture.

The heavenly city described in Revelation that people expect to spend eternity in is clearly shown to be coming DOWN from the sky to be place on the Earth. Were not going there,it and the Lord are coming to us.

Correct! I don't expect to spend eternity in a far away place, but I do expect to spend eternity with a home base on the New Earth, in the City of God as its capital, called the New Jerusalem, which is plainly described in scripture.

However, heaven is a real place where God is and with Him are His people who have gone before us. If you should die before Jesus comes again, as a follower of Christ, you will see heaven as it is now.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, FresnoJoe.

.... Thus, the New Jerusalem is God's HOUSE much as Avraham's tent was HIS house!

So, Yeshua` was saying, "I'm off to build my Father's House, adding rooms on for all of you. But, I will return and collect you to myself, and we'll be together forever from then on." WE DON'T GO TO OUR FATHER'S HOUSE! IT COMES TO US! He did NOT say that He was taking us back to His Father's House, He was just saying we'd be together with Him from then on. Be very careful making assumptions about what you are reading. Other preachers and teachers probably gave you the idea at some point in your history, but they, too, made the same assumptions - the same mistakes!

OK

And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes. Exodus 28:17-21

And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. Revelation 21:19-20

Whereas there may be some significance to the particular stones used in both the high priest's breastplate and the New Jerusalem's foundations, we are not informed as to their significance. Therefore, the best we can hope to do is understand what the stones were and what they looked like. We can admire their beauty and their colors and rest assured that God knows their significance. They may even be linked, but we are not told that they are. SOME of the stones are said to be the same, but not necessarily all of them are compatible. We CAN, however, glean a few things from the text of the New Jerusalem:

First, they are all said to be FOUNDATIONS (Greek: themelioi, the exact same word used in Hebrews 11:10 for the FOUNDATIONS to the city Avraham looked for). This may mean that they are all sunk into the ground, but I don't think so. I believe that they are FOUNDATIONAL LEVELS to this three-dimensional city that is 1,500 miles high! Such foundational levels need support and I believe that support comes from the walls, which are said to be "great and high." We are given the dimension of 144 cubits or 72 yards or 216 feet. That would be an impressive height for a normal city, but not in comparison to a city 1,500 MILES high! It would be like comparing a wall 9/22 inch high to New York City and the Empire State Building!

So, if this dimension is not the height, then what else could it be? I believe it is the THICKNESS of the wall, particularly at the gates!

Furthermore, the city is said to be 1,500 miles long and 1,500 miles wide, as well. We are also told that it comes down from God "out of ouranos." Since there is nothing in between the sky and the ground, that means that the city will LAND! IF the New Earth is comparable in size to the present earth, then it, too, would be approximately 24,902 miles in circumference at the equator. 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees! That means that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" on the opposite side of the city! This tells me that the shape of the city cannot possibly be a cube, as some claim! We DO know, however, that the city "lieth foursquare" or sits on a square area; it has a square footprint. Thus, I believe that the four walls slant inward and ascend all the way to the top. (There's also no mention of a roof, ceiling, or an open top.) Thus, I believe that the four walls simply come to a point for a pinnacle. This produces the shape of a four-sided pyramid. Now, all four walls are said to be made of jasper and the first foundation is made of jasper. In other words, the entire outer casing of the city is this jasper stone!

Because the Greek word "krustallizonti" (from "krustallizoo" meaning "to resemble ice" from which we get our word "crystallize") was translated as "clear as crystal" for the jasper stone in Rev. 21:11, some speculate this to be the diamond. I don't think so. They do know what a jasper stone (iaspis) was in the first century, and it did NOT resemble a diamond! It was a blood-red stone, particularly the red flecks among the green chalcedony of the "bloodstone" or "heliotrope." Clarity does NOT determine color in a stone! Furthermore, the word was just "krustallizonti" and did NOT make reference to it being "clear" at all! I believe this is a blood-red colored stone all a single crystal built from the molecules upward! Such a stone would have unbelievable strength, and there would be no way into the city without going through the "blood!"

Dear One

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

Make No Mistake

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:5-7

"World" (the Greek word "kosmos") and "earth" (the Greek word "gee" pronounced "gay") are NOT the same thing, not in English and not in Greek! The "kosmos" is the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments and politics; the "gee" is the "dirt, soil, ground, land, the Land of Isra'el, a region, or the entire earth as in all the lands combined." The love for the world-system of governments and politics is bad, I agree, but the love for God's creation, the earth, particularly in its pristine form, is a good thing!

This Old Earth And The Cosmos Set In Place Around It

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

Will All Be Gone

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:5

Puff ! ! !

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

Sorry, but the "Old Earth and the Cosmos Set in Place Around It" will NOT go "Puff" and "Be Gone!" That's an assumption based on a FEW Scriptures and not the whole body of evidence. Did a Flood destroy the "whole earth" such that "Puff ! ! !" "Will All Be Gone"? NO! How does a simple deluge of water destroy all 6.6 sextillion tons of matter?! Nor will the Fire destroy the entire "Old Earth!" Consider the following verses, as well:

Psalm 78:68-69

68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

KJV

Psalm 89:35-37

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

Psalm 104:1-5

1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

KJV

Psalm 115:15-16

15 Ye are blessed of the Lord which made heaven and earth.

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

KJV

Psalm 119:89-90

89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

KJV

Proverbs 30:4

4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

KJV

Ecclesiastes 1:4

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

KJV

Isaiah 65:17-18

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

KJV

Isaiah 66:22

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

KJV

While there are verses that talk about the destruction of the earth, we also must acknowledge these verses, too. They are equally part of God's Word. Mankind has only left its mark on the first mile or so of depth. The earth's center is 3,963 miles deep! Why should God destroy the whole globe for the works of man upon its surface? The truth is that He won't. The earth abideth forever, but God will destroy the works of mankind off the (sur)face of the earth.

And Make No Mistake Beloved

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. Isaiah 66:22

All Will Be A New Creation And All Of The Remnant Of Israel Will Be Restored

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Isaiah 45:17

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

The rest of what you wrote is absolutely true and correct.

[taylor30]

Preterism is impossible to defend. No case can be made that Christ set up a 1,000 year kingdom, or that Armageddon has happened, or that the antichrist rules the earth for 7 years, or that all of the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgements have occurred. Obviously the futurist position is correct, although there is understandably disagreement as to which futurist position is correct, be it pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, or amillenial, premillenial, or postmillenial.

Regardless which position you hold, there are several things that remain true.

The temple has to be rebuilt

The antichrist must desicrate it

At least half of the world will die in the 7 year tribulation

Christ will come after the battle of Armageddon to set up a 1,000 year period of peace on the earth.

After that period, Satan, the false prophet, and the beast are judged.

Then the eternal state begins, where sin will NEVER again exist and all children of God will live in perfect peace and unity forever