Preterism versus Futurism

[Bold Believer]

Logos1

Since all is past; Who are you in Christ Jesus?

In Christ

Montana Marv

That is a pretty open ended question. Not sure what you are driving at.

I believe in most Baptist beliefs just that all prophecy is fulfilled. I believe in the triune God. The inerrant Word of God. All scripture is inspired. Salvation by faith not works.

Logos1

In essence, if you are correct in that all was completed in 70 AD, why did it take Rome another 3 years to capture Masada. Also why did Rome continue to have influence until about 350 AD.

Zech 8:3 - This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth and the mountain will of the Lord Almighty will be called the Holy Mountain.

Zech 8:4,5 - This is what the Lord Almighty says: Once again men and women of ripe old age will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each with cane in hand because of his age. The city streets will be filled with boys and girls playing there.

Zech 8:11,12 - But now I will not deal with the remnant of this people as I did in the past, declares the Lord Almighty. The seed will grow well, the vine will its fruit, the ground will produce its crops, and the heavens will drop their dew. I will give all these things as an inheritance to the remnant of this people.

Rome scattered those of Israel from 67 - 73 AD. Opps, all was not finished in 70 AD.

I asked my question because if you are correct; the Bride has already be taken away, the Church is Gone. If you still take communion, you are a farce, as are all who have taken communion over the past 1900 years.

I Cor 11:26 - For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. So if you do take communion, you are proclaiming Christs death until He Comes. Future.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I've no clue what Logos will say to those questions, but here is how I as a historic partial preterist and Last Day Adventist answer them.

1. The Days of Vengeance referred to JERUSALEM. Jerusalem was the seat of Jewish authority. Christ told them that their city was left to them desolate, and it was.

2. Why did Rome have influence until about 350 AD? I offer these Scriptures:

Dan 7:11-12 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The "Little Horn" is Nero. He is the one who fought with the saints a time, two times and half a time. He personified Imperial Rome in every evil sense as none of the other Emperors did. After Nero's death, the rest of the beasts (emperors) began to lose their grip on Imperial power, their dominion was taken, but their lives (and thus world stabliity) were prolonged in the sense of rule. Also, Christianity was beginning to pick up authority as Roman emperor authority declined. The gospel went out. Rome began to permit it and even embrace it.

[JohnD]

Wow. I was going to try to respond to each reply to my OP, but this argument has taken on a life of its own. Borderline childish in some cases, I'm afraid.

I am a futurist because it is what the Bible literally teaches. When I say "literally" I mean "literally." Preterists (full and partial) tend to spiritualize much scripture to make it seem to support their preconceived ideals or interpolations of very subjective terms in scripture like "soon," "near," "at hand," etc. to which I persistently ask what the Preterist does with the passage:

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

...hoping that someday someone of the Preterist persuasion would not slough off a verse of holy scripture as they do. Because Preterism would make a good point at certain passages if "soon," "near," "at hand," etc. only applied to the way we perceive time and that there were no other time tables to consider. But there are many time tables in scripture. And there are many applications of them including the fact that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to man and a thousand years to man as a day to the Lord. "Soon," "near," "at hand," etc. could be ten thousand years to us.

Matthew 24:15-34 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

70 CE was a repeat of 586 BCE. That alone disproves both forms of Preterism as antisemitic drivel.

The GREATEST hurdle for a Preterist, IMO, is the promise in Acts 1:9-11 and the prophecy of Rev. 1:7:

Acts 1:9-11

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

KJV

Let's look at this one above first. Notice please the italicized portion. He will come in the same manner as you have seen him go into heaven. Anyone see a white horse? Anyone see any armies of heaven? Yet futurists constantly use Rev 19 as a description of the Second Coming. I don't buy it. IS it a coming? Yes, a coming of judgment. A fulfilling of the Days of Vengeance (Luke 21, the parallel passage to Matthew 24 which it seems that pre-mils totally ignore), but not THE Second Coming.

Revelation 1:7

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

KJV

Interesting word, clouds; nephelē is the word used and it refers to the Cloud which led Israel in the Wilderness. It may well be at all that 'clouds' is incorrect. The word should perhaps be singular: cloud; and that we should understand it as THE CLOUD. IF that be the case, the passage would make a LOT of sense in the light of Jesus' earlier warnings of impending destruction. That cloud that protected them is now coming to get them (in judgment) and they will see quite clearly that Jesus (whom they rejected as Moschiach) would be The One bringing The Cloud. In essence, this Jesus would be behind the bringing of the judgment upon the Jews who rejected Him, and they would recognize it. Just food for thought.

As for Jesus' second coming not being bodily, He was most definitely taken into the Cloud in His post resurrected body, was He not? So then, why should we not believe that He would return on the Last Day in that body?

For Logos1, I'd like to know how full preterists understand some verses:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

2 Peter 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

Rev 20:7-9 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

All of these are descriptive of the Second Coming. All occur after the Millennium.

Um, the more Preterists post, the more obvious it is they are grasping after straws.

[JohnD]

Jesus visibly went up into heaven.

Jesus will visibly come down from heaven.

That's the point.

Preterists teach (using the parusia interpolation) that Jesus' coming was invisible when he came to Jerusalem and spiritually brought about its destruction using the legions of Rome as his tools / weapons.

The Bible says:

Jesus visibly went up into heaven.

Jesus will visibly come down from heaven.

[JohnD]

Another thing...

Partial Preterists have no reason not to be Full Preterists except for futurist reasons not to be Full Preterists.

I have a particular disdain towards this heresy because of its antisemitism, it's anti-prophetic doctrine, and it has proven to be the most divisive unction since the Reformation and it has the unmitigated gall to call itself Reformed theology. It is unbiblical and spiritualizes texts that should be taken literally and takes literally texts that are figurative. It is the golden calf idol, the serpent on the pole which had to be crushed into powder because the heretics worshipped it.

I will ask the confirmed convicted Preterist (of any degree) this. If futurism is proven wrong at the end of history then there is no harm done. If Preterism is proven wrong, then you and your system of belief and your teachers and your students are all guilty of removing the prophetic "bridge out" signs in the word of God placed there to warn humanity about the greatest chasm and abyss humanity ever faced.

Are you that convinced?

[JohnD]

{ snip }

1. The Days of Vengeance referred to JERUSALEM. Jerusalem was the seat of Jewish authority. Christ told them that their city was left to them desolate, and it was.

Non sequiteur.

2. Why did Rome have influence until about 350 AD? I offer these Scriptures:

Dan 7:11-12 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

When has Roman rule ended? The Roman Catholic Empire capital is still in Rome. It's emperor has become the pope, its senate the cardinals, bishops are the regional governors... etc. The Roman Empire morphed into a religion.

The "Little Horn" is Nero. He is the one who fought with the saints a time, two times and half a time. He personified Imperial Rome in every evil sense as none of the other Emperors did. After Nero's death, the rest of the beasts (emperors) began to lose their grip on Imperial power, their dominion was taken, but their lives (and thus world stabliity) were prolonged in the sense of rule. Also, Christianity was beginning to pick up authority as Roman emperor authority declined. The gospel went out. Rome began to permit it and even embrace it.

Nope. The little Horn is the beast in Revelation 13 who Paul identifies as the man of lawlessness the son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3) which Jesus referred to in John 17:12.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JohnDB.

Wow. I was going to try to respond to each reply to my OP, but this argument has taken on a life of its own. Borderline childish in some cases, I'm afraid.

I am a futurist because it is what the Bible literally teaches. When I say "literally" I mean "literally." Preterists (full and partial) tend to spiritualize much scripture to make it seem to support their preconceived ideals or interpolations of very subjective terms in scripture like "soon," "near," "at hand," etc. to which I persistently ask what the Preterist does with the passage:

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

...hoping that someday someone of the Preterist persuasion would not slough off a verse of holy scripture as they do. Because Preterism would make a good point at certain passages if "soon," "near," "at hand," etc. only applied to the way we perceive time and that there were no other time tables to consider. But there are many time tables in scripture. And there are many applications of them including the fact that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to man and a thousand years to man as a day to the Lord. "Soon," "near," "at hand," etc. could be ten thousand years to us.

Matthew 24:15-34 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

70 CE was a repeat of 586 BCE. That alone disproves both forms of Preterism as antisemitic drivel.

Although I have been called a partial preterist, and I have nothing better to call myself, I'm not as far from your viewpoint as you might think, and I am FAR from antisemitic! (I'm a Messianic Jew.) I, too, believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture, actually a grammatical, historical method of interpretation that others have used for pretribulational rapturism. However, please understand that I've learned just a few things since I was a pretribulational rapturist back in the 70s and the early 80s. I am and always will be a futurist by conviction. I believe that you are 100% correct about the Bible teaching that position literally.

While I can understand why others would believe otherwise, I also realize that most of them have no idea about the simple, down-to-earth literalism of the authors of the Scriptures, and I therefore believe that they are naively wrong. I never spiritualize anything in Scriptures and believe that the Christian allegorical interpretation of the Bible is an error with ancient roots (in the 200s-400s A.D.), started by people like Clement of Alexandria (150-215), Origen (184/5–253/4), Jerome (c. 347 – 30 September 420), and Augustine of Hippo (November 13, 354 – August 28, 430).

Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in which are recorded the prophecy of Yeshua` known as the "Olivet Discourse," because He spoke the majority of His prophecy from Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), is a prediction of events close (within the lifespans of His listeners) and far away in the future. He spoke about both the abomination of the Temple's and Jerusalem's desolation in 66 to 70 A.D., but He also spoke about the darkening of the sun, the moon being turned blood-red, and the stars (meteorites) falling from the sky, which is an event yet in our future. The "tribulation" (Greek: "thlipsis") covers that entire time period! It was a pressure put upon the Jews and the Jewish believers some 40 years after Yeshua`s rejection, death, resurrection, and ascension. Thus, the "tribulation" also known as the "times of the Goyim (Gentiles)" or the period of "Ya`aqov's trouble" or "Jacob's trouble," began in the first century but continues today and will continue until Yeshua` returns.

Yeshua` Himself said,

Matthew 23:37-39

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

KJV

This defines the "gap" in the 70 sevens of Gavri'el's prophecy in Dani'el 9:24-27.

Yeshua` haMashiach Himself split the 70 sevens and separated the last half of the last seven from the first half of the last seven, delaying the clock until the Jews can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH." The first half was found in His offer of Himself to be Isra'el's King commonly called the 3.5 years of Yeshua`s "ministry." The last half was prophesied in Revelation 12:6, 14; and 13:5.

[Steve_S]

I've no clue what Logos will say to those questions, but here is how I as a historic partial preterist and Last Day Adventist answer them.

1. The Days of Vengeance referred to JERUSALEM. Jerusalem was the seat of Jewish authority. Christ told them that their city was left to them desolate, and it was.

2. Why did Rome have influence until about 350 AD? I offer these Scriptures:

Dan 7:11-12 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The "Little Horn" is Nero. He is the one who fought with the saints a time, two times and half a time. He personified Imperial Rome in every evil sense as none of the other Emperors did. After Nero's death, the rest of the beasts (emperors) began to lose their grip on Imperial power, their dominion was taken, but their lives (and thus world stabliity) were prolonged in the sense of rule. Also, Christianity was beginning to pick up authority as Roman emperor authority declined. The gospel went out. Rome began to permit it and even embrace it.

I have to respectfully dispute your claim about the emperors of rome after nero. The empire and the seat of the emperor had not yet reached it's pinnacle of power and nero CERTAINLY was not at that pinnacle. Marcus Aurelius, Trajan, and Hadrian are widely considered to be three of the greatest roman emperors and all were after nero. Rome wasn't even at it's peak. Rome still GREW after 70 a.d. The other "beasts" couldn't have been later emperors anyway because nero died before the abomination at the temple, so if partial or full preterism is true then they'd have to be the emperors immediately between nero and titus, but titus wasn't the emperor at the time he could've caused the abomination (and there's no record that i know of saying that he did). If a roman stood in the temple and proclaimed himself God it had to be titus, who didn't even become emperor until almost 10 years later. His father, vespasian, was marching an army back to rome to claim the throne out of the power vacuum created by Nero's death and replacement with a very fast succession of inept rulers when Jerusalem finally fell. I'm sorry, if you study actual history it just doesn't line up. The problem I have with a partial or full preterist view is that we KNOW the history and it should line up exactly with the prophecy and it quite simply does not.

[Bold Believer]

{ snip }

1. The Days of Vengeance referred to JERUSALEM. Jerusalem was the seat of Jewish authority. Christ told them that their city was left to them desolate, and it was.

Non sequiteur.

2. Why did Rome have influence until about 350 AD? I offer these Scriptures:

Dan 7:11-12 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

When has Roman rule ended? The Roman Catholic Empire capital is still in Rome. It's emperor has become the pope, its senate the cardinals, bishops are the regional governors... etc. The Roman Empire morphed into a religion.

The "Little Horn" is Nero. He is the one who fought with the saints a time, two times and half a time. He personified Imperial Rome in every evil sense as none of the other Emperors did. After Nero's death, the rest of the beasts (emperors) began to lose their grip on Imperial power, their dominion was taken, but their lives (and thus world stabliity) were prolonged in the sense of rule. Also, Christianity was beginning to pick up authority as Roman emperor authority declined. The gospel went out. Rome began to permit it and even embrace it.

Nope. The little Horn is the beast in Revelation 13 who Paul identifies as the man of lawlessness the son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3) which Jesus referred to in John 17:12.

The Roman church is not in discussion here. The Roman Empire eventually ended, and it was weakening over time since 70 AD. Emperor worship died out. What you're postulating sounds like Seventh Day Adventism's eschatology, or even Reformation Theology that the Pope is 'the antichrist'. He isn't. Is the concept of Papism heretical? If it isn't, it's close to it. The idea that the Son of God requires a Vicar is preposterous.

Your statement that the Little Horn in the Beast in Rev 13 is correct...up until you tried to add Paul's 2 Thess 2 description of the man of sin/lawlessness into the mix. Two different things. Nero IS historically the little horn of Daniel. He uprooted three to get to the throne. HE persecuted (made war with) the saints of God for forty-two months and overcame them. His name adds up to 666.

John 17:12 is referring to Judas Iscariotes (Judas Iscariot if you prefer). Of all of the disciples God gave Jesus, Judas was the only one lost. The others were all saved.

It seems then that we are partly in agreement and partly not.

[JohnD]

Shalom, JohnDB.

Wow. I was going to try to respond to each reply to my OP, but this argument has taken on a life of its own. Borderline childish in some cases, I'm afraid.

I am a futurist because it is what the Bible literally teaches. When I say "literally" I mean "literally." Preterists (full and partial) tend to spiritualize much scripture to make it seem to support their preconceived ideals or interpolations of very subjective terms in scripture like "soon," "near," "at hand," etc. to which I persistently ask what the Preterist does with the passage:

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

...hoping that someday someone of the Preterist persuasion would not slough off a verse of holy scripture as they do. Because Preterism would make a good point at certain passages if "soon," "near," "at hand," etc. only applied to the way we perceive time and that there were no other time tables to consider. But there are many time tables in scripture. And there are many applications of them including the fact that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to man and a thousand years to man as a day to the Lord. "Soon," "near," "at hand," etc. could be ten thousand years to us.

Matthew 24:15-34 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

70 CE was a repeat of 586 BCE. That alone disproves both forms of Preterism as antisemitic drivel.

Although I have been called a partial preterist, and I have nothing better to call myself, I'm not as far from your viewpoint as you might think, and I am FAR from antisemitic! (I'm a Messianic Jew.) I, too, believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture, actually a grammatical, historical method of interpretation that others have used for pretribulational rapturism. However, please understand that I've learned just a few things since I was a pretribulational rapturist back in the 70s and the early 80s. I am and always will be a futurist by conviction. I believe that you are 100% correct about the Bible teaching that position literally.

While I can understand why others would believe otherwise, I also realize that most of them have no idea about the simple, down-to-earth literalism of the authors of the Scriptures, and I therefore believe that they are naively wrong. I never spiritualize anything in Scriptures and believe that the Christian allegorical interpretation of the Bible is an error with ancient roots (in the 200s-400s A.D.), started by people like Clement of Alexandria (150-215), Origen (184/5–253/4), Jerome (c. 347 – 30 September 420), and Augustine of Hippo (November 13, 354 – August 28, 430).

Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in which are recorded the prophecy of Yeshua` known as the "Olivet Discourse," because He spoke the majority of His prophecy from Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), is a prediction of events close (within the lifespans of His listeners) and far away in the future. He spoke about both the abomination of the Temple's and Jerusalem's desolation in 66 to 70 A.D., but He also spoke about the darkening of the sun, the moon being turned blood-red, and the stars (meteorites) falling from the sky, which is an event yet in our future. The "tribulation" (Greek: "thlipsis") covers that entire time period! It was a pressure put upon the Jews and the Jewish believers some 40 years after Yeshua`s rejection, death, resurrection, and ascension. Thus, the "tribulation" also known as the "times of the Goyim (Gentiles)" or the period of "Ya`aqov's trouble" or "Jacob's trouble," began in the first century but continues today and will continue until Yeshua` returns.

Yeshua` Himself said,

Matthew 23:37-39

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

KJV

This defines the "gap" in the 70 sevens of Gavri'el's prophecy in Dani'el 9:24-27.

Yeshua` haMashiach Himself split the 70 sevens and separated the last half of the last seven from the first half of the last seven, delaying the clock until the Jews can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH." The first half was found in His offer of Himself to be Isra'el's King commonly called the 3.5 years of Yeshua`s "ministry." The last half was prophesied in Revelation 12:6, 14; and 13:5.

And I say you are not the Preterist you are made out to be.

[Steve_S]

{ snip }

1. The Days of Vengeance referred to JERUSALEM. Jerusalem was the seat of Jewish authority. Christ told them that their city was left to them desolate, and it was.

Non sequiteur.

2. Why did Rome have influence until about 350 AD? I offer these Scriptures:

Dan 7:11-12 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

When has Roman rule ended? The Roman Catholic Empire capital is still in Rome. It's emperor has become the pope, its senate the cardinals, bishops are the regional governors... etc. The Roman Empire morphed into a religion.

The "Little Horn" is Nero. He is the one who fought with the saints a time, two times and half a time. He personified Imperial Rome in every evil sense as none of the other Emperors did. After Nero's death, the rest of the beasts (emperors) began to lose their grip on Imperial power, their dominion was taken, but their lives (and thus world stabliity) were prolonged in the sense of rule. Also, Christianity was beginning to pick up authority as Roman emperor authority declined. The gospel went out. Rome began to permit it and even embrace it.

Nope. The little Horn is the beast in Revelation 13 who Paul identifies as the man of lawlessness the son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3) which Jesus referred to in John 17:12.

The Roman church is not in discussion here. The Roman Empire eventually ended, and it was weakening over time since 70 AD. Emperor worship died out. What you're postulating sounds like Seventh Day Adventism's eschatology, or even Reformation Theology that the Pope is 'the antichrist'. He isn't. Is the concept of Papism heretical? If it isn't, it's close to it. The idea that the Son of God requires a Vicar is preposterous.

Your statement that the Little Horn in the Beast in Rev 13 is correct...up until you tried to add Paul's 2 Thess 2 description of the man of sin/lawlessness into the mix. Two different things. Nero IS historically the little horn of Daniel. He uprooted three to get to the throne. HE persecuted (made war with) the saints of God for forty-two months and overcame them. His name adds up to 666.

John 17:12 is referring to Judas Iscariotes (Judas Iscariot if you prefer). Of all of the disciples God gave Jesus, Judas was the only one lost. The others were all saved.

It seems then that we are partly in agreement and partly not.

Rome did not start to weaken in 70 ad. It actually continued to grow to the point that it needed two emperors.