Did god create evil?

[godrulz]

Harvester: I doubt any Christian would believe God has sin in Him, so no, I did not think you believe that. However, IF God created moral evil, then He is morally responsible for it and in a sense leads to a tainting of God's character. That thought seems to me to be contrary to His revealed character and attributes. It seems to me the only sane conclusion is that God did NOT create evil. I have tried to show that the few proof texts do not teach that, so that only leaves a rational argument that does not seem coherent. I think there is a clearer understanding of the nature and origin of evil that does not require strained speculation or distorting the doctrine of the sovereignty of God.

Shilou: A study of Rom. 9-11 would take a book. I still maintain it is about the election of the nation of Israel and not individuals. The example of Pharoah is a seeming contradiction that is usually resolved by recognizing that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first and THEN God justly further hardened it to serve His purposes of justice on evil and freedom for God's people. We would have to look at every reference in the O.T. narratives and the N.T. verses (this study has been done thoroughly in books; your view is a conclusion that would not stand in light of all the evidence; so I gently suggest your understanding, and mine, need some more thought; I don't deny these things because they are 'uncomfortable', but because they do not have the ring of truth in the light of all relevant Scriptures...i.e.  I think it is a wrong interpretation).

To rely only on Scripture (an English translation) and the Spirit (many claim to be led by the Spirit with diametrically opposite views/conclusions...we need objectivity because of our mix of spirit/flesh/undisciplined mind) is good on the surface (and I concur in a sense), but many cults and people have been subjectively misled into various winds of doctrines or heresies without an accurate translation or knowledge of minimal scholastics (e.g. Mormon; J.W.).

Some verses require an understanding of the original culture for an accurate interpretation/application and this will not usually be supernaturally revealed, but will require study on Bible customs/archaeology and cultures, for example. Study and reasoning is Scriptural (Paul reasoned from Scripture; Timothy was to study to show himself approved; Paul called for his books before death and was highly educated and chosen by God and used more effectively because of this background). Anti-intellectualism and superspiritualism can be dangerous. Some, not all, fine points of Bible interpretation and doctrine formulation require a working knowledge of the original Hebrew and Greek. Many cultic or Christian heresies/interpretations break down when scholarship, to come up with an accurate translation and interpretation of the original languages, is factored in. J.W.s are a classic example of this (Jn. 1:1 'a god' vs 'God' etc.)

So, unless you respond specifically to the proof texts from Isaiah, etc. we now agree to disagree. I am persuaded, in the end, that God did not create evil directly, but responded wisely after the fact to uphold His righteous Kingdom and Moral Government. I rejoice in His wisdom to create a universe with genuine freedom/choices, and am awed that He took such a risk that genuine love and relationship would be possible. I worship Him in His holiness knowing He does and will reign supreme over evil. I share His broken heart and grief over the wickedness of His originally glorious creation, but trust in His great redemption. However, I will not slander Him nor distort His Holy nature/Word and say He purposely created evil specifically for a purpose (he does allow it and use it though for a time). I do not believe you intend to slander God, and do understand what you believe and why (though I disagree with the arguments and conclusions). God is the most valuable being in the universe because of His perfections. His wisdom, love, and perpetual desire to chose the highest good of Himself and His creation (love) would be undermined if He deliberately introduced evil into the mix (though He obviously knew that it was a distinct possibility when freedom involves alterante choices). The devil (ex-Lucifer) and man (once innocent, now fallen) introduced evil and thus bear the full responsibility (not God) for it. However, the great and responsive God will have the final say (on this we agree).

God bless and good bye on this topic (I hope).

[IslandRose]

Shilou,

You and I agree on a great deal.

[Guest shilou]

On Romans 9 you guys are only disputing half of the scripture. What about the part that says I raised you up for this very purpose. Meaning God made Pharoh exactly the way he was for the very purpose of his defiance so God could show His mercy and wrath?

And nobody responded to Job. God truly ALLOWED Satan to wipe out this mans life, to prove Satan wrong. There is nothing that goes on here, or in the heavens that God does not ALLOW  to happen. Yes we have free will, but God could take that away any time He chooses. Explain to me if you can why a child is raped, why a mother dies in childbirth, why abortion continues. I can give you the simple explanation, because it is our pain that brings us to the feet of God. Why did He not just take Satan out to begin with? Why have centuries of peoples have to go through all they have? What you are truly saying is God created us and Satan capable of evil without knowing it, and when it manifested itself without Gods knowledge He realized He had made a mistake and set a plan that would cover centuries of pain and anguish for people that would bring us back to Him. Well not all of us but a remnant. And all of this came about without the Creators prior knowledge that it could and would happen? So it was just kind of a fluke, a little problem in the original design, first of the angels and then us? And why if He created the angels first and knowing that this problem in the design had happened didn't He fix it?

As far as Romans being just about Israel, if you read scripture correctly you will see that Israel is a shadow of each of our lives, and each nations existence. There is nothing in scripture that does not pertain to each and every existence on the face of the earth. God's kingdom is inside each of us and each of us has played out Israel in our lives to one degree or another. And as with Israel each one of us has been going through a weaning process to get us off the dependance of the material and onto a dependance of only God.

In Yashua's Love

Shilou

[godrulz]

IR: Well worded and clear.

Shilou: I am rereading Job (because of my current trials) and am stretched by it. Your insights would be helpful and appreciated. I almost thought God sent unjust, immoral evil on Job directly. Now I wonder if He ALLOWED Satan, for a time, to afflict Job for a greater good and glory (vindication, etc.). Satan was the robber, thief, murderer, liar, and destroyer. God gives life and hope and all good things. God did not strike Job's family down Himself. So I think this fits the idea of 'God creating evil' means that He can allow disasters, trials, and calamities within His love, discipline, and justice, but not create moral evil from Himself directly.

Though He slay me, I will still trust Him. We must discern the true source of our afflictions (world, flesh, devil). It is kind of a Catholic view to think God sends sickness, death, and evil to develop us. Some things are just accidents and part of living in a Fallen world. We are not glorified yet.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shilou,

Perhaps you ought to reread what I have written. There is nothing that God does not know. It is called "omniscience" - ALL KNOWLEDGE. From before the foundation of the world God had a plan to interject HIMSELF into human history to provide a means for mankinds salvation:

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1 Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, ...

Anything less than God (the entire creation) is NOT perfect, (on the 6th day, God looked upon all He created and saw that it was very good - FOR HIS PURPOSES). Once Jesus was asked "Good Rabbi..." to which Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me "good", there is ONLY ONE "good", and He is my Father in Heaven." (my paraphrase)

Anything that is less than God is going to "suffer" in some way for it. Not because of some purpose of God to MAKE US SUFFER, but ONLY because suffering is a result of NOT being PERFECT. Jesus tells us that while in this world we shall suffer tribulation. This has ALWAYS been the case and will continue to be so until the day "we are changed to be like Him."

Again I stress that God DID NOT CREATE EVIL! He has ALWAYS used it for his purposes though because He was able to see (foreknowledge) that it would rear its ugly head as soon as He gave "free will" to His creation.

When you bear a child, you can be both happy and sad at the same time. Happy because a child is such a beautiful, innocent thing. Sad because you know that in this world that child IS going to lose much of its beauty and also its innocence. You will try your best to cushion the shock of what is to come but in the end, the child, even as you and I, are NOT perfect, and thus we shall suffer. God has never wished this upon any of us, nor did He design His creation to be so. But He created a Garden wherein man could live forever beside the "Tree of Life". Instead man chose to listen to the lie of Satan and thus departed from the truth AND God's command. God had no choice but to eliminate "sin" from the Garden, but He has made a provision for it "out in the WORLD", but out there, as you can tell when reading about the curse upon Adam, we ALL suffer tribulation.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[godrulz]

Here is an interesting, recurring phrase in Job:

"In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing." (1:22) ('The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away.')

"In all this, Job did not sin in what he said." (2:10) ('Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?'= natural 'evil'/trials) (

(i.e. Job did not say God created/sent moral evil- application for our discussion? Maybe parallel? What other verses could be used to shed light for/against our discussion?)

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

Here is Matthew Henry's commentary on Isaiah 45:7:

#5-10 There is no God beside Jehovah. There is nothing done without him. He makes peace, put here for all good; and creates evil, not the evil of sin, but the evil of punishment. He is the Author of all that is true, holy, good, or happy; and evil, error, and misery, came into the world by his permission, through the wilful apostacy of his creatures, but are restrained and overruled to his righteous purpose. This doctrine is applied, for the comfort of those that earnestly longed, yet quietly waited, for the redemption of Israel. The redemption of sinners by the Son of God, and the pouring out the Spirit, to give success to the gospel, are chiefly here intended. We must not expect salvation without righteousness; together the Lord hath created them. Let not oppressors oppose God's designs for his people. Let not the poor oppressed murmur, as if God dealt unkindly with them. Men are but earthen pots; they are broken potsherds, and are very much made so by mutual contentions. To contend with Him is as senseless as for clay to find fault with the potter. Let us turn God's promises into prayers, beseeching him that salvation may abound among us, and let us rest assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[godrulz]

Good doctrinal and devotional insights. Thx

[Guest shilou]

Hi guys I would say your starting to agree with me. Yes I know that God did not directly afflict Job, but He allowed it for His own purposes. Not Jobs, Job was not being punished, nor was he in any way disobedient. So the story goes God does as He will with us, regardless at times of what we are doing. We are created imperfect, how do we know this? Well look around it's simple. How would we have come to know this had we not fallen, not sinned, and not been punished for sin? So now you know why Satan was created to fulfill the very purpose that he does. So we and the angels would know beyond a shadow of a doubt who is in charge and who is to be glorified. Does that make sense?

Here we have two very intelligent spiecies that God loves. Man and angels, God desires a relationship with us, He desires for us to come to Him willingly and in need. How do we end up needing God. You know you never want your children to get hurt, but it sure does feel good when they come to you with a hurt finger and believe you have the power to heal them in your kiss. Could you display that healing power had it not been for the hurt? It's a tough thing to swallow until you understand where God is going with it.

I think the story of Job plays out in each believers life at some point. Satan accuses us before God and says I can make him fall. God says go ahead and try but don't touch his life. God allows this for His glory that we each of us can prove Satan wrong no matter what he throws at us. In the end when we are still standing with God no matter the calamity we glorify God, in front of our families, friends and more importantly all the angels in heaven. So if your being tried and tested always remember all of heaven is holding it's breath waiting and cheering for you. Can you imagine how angry it must make Satan when a martyr dies refusing to deny Christ? To us here it seems horrible and evil and we focus in on the people who did the act. But in heaven they are rejoicing because once again God proved Satan wrong. Most of the time it is the painful, tragic, and horrible things in life that bring us to God. If it wasn't for those we would probably go about our lives indifferent to Him who heals all hurt. God started this whole thing out knowing how it would go. He started with two beautiful people in a garden and gave them a beautiful world to live in. Had He not created Satan to wreak havoc on that beautiful world we would have gone down through the generations and forgotten Him and ignored Him. This way we can't, this way we have to make a choice, and He had to give us a choice to make. Because of the evil in this world we hold onto God for glorious hope. Now imagine in eternity we still have free will. Will any one of us desire to get all this started up again? Now that would be crazy because we would have hindsight, and we already know how our running things turns out. Before God could have a race of people that were truly devoted to Him He had to well you could say show us that the grass is not greener on the other side so to speak, beforehand. When He created us He knew what we were capable of so He gave it to us ahead of time. He knew because of our higher intelligence and our free will we would want to run the show sooner or later so He brought it up sooner. And those who could not humble themselves to Him had to perish, simply because you would have the whole mess all over again. Does this make any sense?

In Yeshua's Love

Shilou

[Guest Trust in the Lord]

sorry for being away for so long but you know how things happen...anyway Shilou I agree with you and I know that they are understanding what we are getting at but they just cannot get that concept that God Created everything...Prayer is so important...bring it to God in Prayer...it is amazing what God can do for you when you bring things to Him in prayer....