Did god create evil?

[godrulz]

The record of Job is a true story and has principles for human suffering. This was an exceptional test case, and not normative (and should not be exactly illustrative of the suffering that millions experience and used to form a doctrine that God created evil). There are many explanations of suffering and evil: man's inhumanity to man; selfishness; accidents; demonic; wrong choices with negative consequences, God's judgement/testing. We cannot argue from this specific narrative about one man (Job) at one point in history, to the general (all mankind, for all times) as an explanation for all suffering. Not EVERY suffering is related to Satan coming to God to test a righteous man. Most is the result of living in a fallen world and not being redeemed or glorified yet (unrighteous, unlike Job).

Ezek. 28:12-19 "You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty...you were on the holy mount of God...you WERE blameless in your ways....TILL (not before) wickedness was found in you...(consequence to sin)= so (then and only then) I drove you in disgrace...your heart BECAME (not always) proud...and YOU corrupted your wisdom...by YOUR sins...you HAVE come to a horrible end..."

The simple, plain, straightforward interpretation of this passage is that a perfect created being became evil by his choice and then was judged. God is capable of creating perfect beings with no evil. A perfect being would have free will, and would be capable of 'creating' evil and thus responsible, not God.

Surely this verse supports my view and not yours. It is not a good passage to support your preconceived concepts about God creating evil. It seems to me it supports the exact opposite (without mental gymnastics).

I do not find this topic confusing. It is clear in its simplicity, but confusing in the explanations trying to support an indefensible position (in my humble thinking).

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shilou,

So far I see nothing in Godrulz' posts with which I disagree. So to many of your questions (to me) you can also refer to HIS posts.

Give me some kind of evidence that the Creator of all of heaven and earth did not know this would happen the way it did.

I believe you have asked similar questions before and all I can guess is that you are grasping for straws. By God's FOREKNOWLEDGE, there is nothing past, present or future of which He is not fully cognizant of. This does not mean that He created it, only that He was fully aware of it. God knew of the accident that is going to happen in the street in front of your house tomorrow even before the days of creation. I cannot say the same for myself. If and when it happens I shall know about it. Herein lies the problem. We see as through a glass darkly. Therefore our decisions are not always perfect, we make errors, we judge poorly, sometimes our flesh gives sway over us and we intentionally sin. Adam "saw" that the fruit was beautiful and good for making one wise that he might even become "like God" - as though he hadn't already been created "in His image". He made a poor assessment and we have all suffered for it since. Adam was NOT "perfect", and thus our reliance for our salvation can never be upon ourselves, but God must make a way where there is no other way. He provided Himself, through His Son, to be the "perfect" one in which we can have propitiation of our sins by believing upon Him and following Him. God KNEW "before the foundation of the world" that He would have to do this, but this in no way indicates that He had to create evil for it to happen. Evil comes of its own accord through the hearts and minds of the angels and men who posit it. God never posits evil, except to use it to bring about His own ends.

You have yet to present even one reasonable argument. Don't you think its about time you started "believing" the truth of the matter?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest shilou]

Dad Ernie all I'm asking is this. As you say God had foreknowledge of what would happen. So why did He not do it differently? He could have, having full knowledge of things to come. So God saw that Satan would go the way He did and instead of in His infinite wisdom keep Satan in a subordinate position He decked him out and put him in a position to feed his ego rather then squelch it. So just simply explain to me why God would do it this way without having a prior purpose in doing so. You see I look at it this way, we as people do all kinds of things that are without puirpose or meaning and we make mistakes. God does not do things without purpose and He does not make mistakes.

And God Rulz my example of Job is to stretch beyond our limited human understanding and know there is much more to this story then we understand. There are things going on in heaven that we are not privy to, so not to draw conclusions from our human understanding. I am quite aware that many of our struggles are of our own making. But I also know that God uses our struggles and does cause some for His own purposes. I also pointed out Ezekiel's wife and I could go through scripture and show more if you would like. What of Ishmael? Now I will leave this at we agree to disagree. I stand on God knew what He was doing and did it all for His own purposes to bring glory unto Himself, which He very much deserves.

In Yeshua's Love

Shilou

[Guest InHisLove]

I believe that God loves His creation (us) SO deeply that He wants US to come to Him and accept Him as God.  He gave us all free will to seek Him (even satan), not make us to HAVE TO seek Him.  Otherwise, we wouldn't have free will.  For when it is our choice to love Him, that is pure, true love.  

:il:

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shilou,

So why did He not do it differently? He could have, having full knowledge of things to come. So God saw that Satan would go the way He did and instead of in His infinite wisdom keep Satan in a subordinate position He decked him out and put him in a position to feed his ego rather then squelch it.

Here is your answer, please meditate upon it:

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[godrulz]

Dr. Gregory Boyd (Baptist pastor/professor) dialogued with his unsaved father through letters and phone calls. After 3 years and 30 letters, his father became a believer in his 70's.

These are recorded in "Letters from a Skeptic: a son wrestles with his father's questions about Christianity." 1994 Cook Communications (Victor). I just bought it on sale for $12 U.S.

Chapters include:

Why is the world so full of suffering?

Is the risk of freedom worth all the suffering?

Why does God create earthquakes and famines?

Why did God create Satan? (very helpful insights; anyone interested?)

other questions about God, Jesus, Bible, Christian Life/Doctrine...

very readable book (note: he takes my view of foreknowledge/omniscience at times, but also tries to look at it from the classical view and argues soundly regardless).

I may quote more passages as an example, if this thread continues.

He takes the position that God is not responsible for evil (as do most theologians). His arguments are clear, concise, cogent, and Scriptural.

e.g. "To be significantly free is to be morally responsible..."

"So why doesn't God intervene every time someone is going to misuse his freedom and hurt another person? The answer, I believe, is found in the nature of freedom itself. A freedom which was prevented from being exercised whenever it was going to be misused simply wouldn't be freedom...if God really gives us freedom, it must be, at least to a large extent, irrevocable."

"...love requires freedom. It must be chosen. And the greater the possibility of love, the greater the possibility of evil."

[traveller]

Why did God create Satan? (very helpful insights; anyone interested?)

Yeah, I am.

[godrulz]

I'll try to edit his main thoughts (with quotes for copyrite). This is a conversational explanation, as opposed to a doctrinal dissertation. There are other good theological books on theodicy (problem of evil) out there (e.g. C.S. Lewis).

His previous chapters give background to the Satan question, so hopefully it will still be helpful.

I think the gist (I haven't read it all yet) will be that God did not create 'Satan', but Lucifer BECAME evil on his own. This possibility and eventual actuality was considered to be a higher good for God and the universe than not creating free will beings with potential for loving relationships or evil. No Satan might mean no you or me existing and living with God forever. Even if there was no Lucifer and angels (and hence no devil/demons ultimately), man still likely would have went the way of selfishness and evil (but this was not necessarily inevitable). Stay tuned...

[traveller]

okay  :music:  tuned....

and thank you Godrulz

[godrulz]

Traveller: What are your thoughts, feelings, insights, conclusions so far on this topic?

Shilou: read Kumar's outline below (it deals with your objections and says more in point form than I do rambling).

Is God unjust, tyrannical, vindictive, alien? (the deceived)

Is God inscrutable, fixed, legal, mystical? (the deceivers)

Is God reasonable, creative, loving, personal? (the reconciled)

(above from George Otis, Jr. "The God they never knew: the tragedy of religion without relationship")

It seems to me that Calvinism and those who believe that God creates evil need to see that God is holy, loving, and personal. This topic is worth fleshing out, if God did not create evil. To attribute evil to Him (assuming the opposite is correct) would grieve the God who wants to be understood and worshiped in truth. It also misrepresents Him to those we want to reach. God creating evil is normally an accusation from atheists and unbelievers who don't want to serve that kind of God (rightly so).

Dr. Steve Kumar is a respected apologist in comparative religions, etc. I dug up some notes from a seminar I attended over 20 years ago (his teaching was simple, yet profound). Here are a few thoughts on evil/suffering (theodicy) before I get to Boyd's book (worth looking at= Kumar):

How to test a world view: Is it logical? Is it factual? Is it livable?

1) Eastern worldview (Hindu, Buddhism): all is one, one is all= all is good; evil is an illusion; everything is the same.

This is an escape from reality and does not explain the origin or reality of obvious evil.

2) Atheistic: Evil exists; therefore God cannot exist.

Evil actually supports the existence of God (good/evil= moral law= moral law giver= God).

3) Christian:

I) The problem of the NATURE of evil:

False argument:

a) God is the author/creator of everything.

b) Evil is something (not an illusion).

c) So, God is the author/creator of evil.

Answer:

a) God is the author of everything (but see previous posts why he is not the author of evil).

b) But evil is not a 'thing' (Metaphysics/substance). It is a lack in things (realm of MORALS/choice/freedom, not 'thing').

c) Hence, it does not follow that God created evil (logically).

e.g. a gun (thing/metaphysics= molecules are morally neutral) is not evil; the misuse of it to murder is (morals).

If my child that I brought into the world murders someone, he is responsible, not me (cf. God/creation).

The universe we live in means that to be able to swim, means it is also possible to drown (good/evil). Things can go wrong in a free world not manipulated and micromanaged by God in the absolute sense all the time.

If a mother takes drugs during pregnancy, it can affect the child.

II) The problem of the PERSISTENCE of evil:

1) Problem stated:

a) Evil cannot be destroyed without destroying freedom.

i) Love is the greatest good for free creatures.

ii) But love is impossible without freedom.

iii) So, to destroy freedom would not be the greatest good (God's wisdom).

b) Evil will yet be defeated.

i) If God is all-powerful, He CAN defeat evil.

ii) If God is all-good, He WILL defeat evil.

iii) Evil is not yet defeated.

iv) Therefore, evil will one day be defeated (see Revelation).

III) The problem of the PURPOSE of evil:

False argument:

1. There is no good purpose for much suffering.

2. An all good being (God) must have a good purpose for everything.

3. Hence, there cannot be an all-good God.

Answer:

1. Distinction: Even if we don't know God's purpose, He may still have a good purpose for evil.

2. We do know some good purposes for evil:

a) to warn us of greater evil

b) to keep us from self-destruction

c) to help bring about greater good

d) to help defeat evil

IV) The problem of the AVOIDABILITY of evil:

Problem stated:

1. God knows everything knowable.

2. So God knew evil would occur when he created the world (I say He knew it as a possibility, not certainty).

3. God had other non-evil possibilities: