Why December 25 is Christmas

[other one]

You're making it possible for Satan to confuse people about the gospel..... and that's a serious thing.

We were told not to learn the ways of the heathen, to worship our God the ways that the heathen worship their gods and in a way that is really what we do. Is it a sin...... I'll let Jesus decide that, but I know from interfacing with a lot of people that it isn't good.

Really?? Well then, to be consistent, you need to stop going to church. The word "church" is anglicized from a Teutonic word that means "circle." The ancient Druids used to meet in a "kirke" every first day of the week to worship the son. The word Kirke is directly related to the circle of the sun.

So you will need to cease your pagainistic churchgoing. Oh and don't celebrate the resurrection of Jesus cause that isn't commanded in the Bible either.

Can you not see just how ridiculous the whole "pagan" notion is??? God commanded Israel not to adopt overt pagan ritualism, such as boiling baby goats in the milk of their mother, constructing images of Him and worshipping said images. He commanded Israelite priests not to tatoo images of gods on tjheir bodies like the pagan priests did, or to practice necromancy, diviniation, and other such occultic practices. That is what God was talking about.

Christmas is, for the most part only 700 years old and originated in Christian Europe. The Christmas tree, the nativity scene, and all of that are only around 700 years old and have nothing to do with ancient near east pagan practices.

You need to get a grip on REAL facts, and not this revisionist nonsense.

You keep saying the same thing and Chuck, Tom and David keep saying another.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"NIMROD" - The LORD of Christmas

"Nimrod started the great organized worldly apostasy

from God that has dominated this world until now.

Nimrod married his own mother, whose name was Semiramis.

After Nimrod's death, his so-called mother-wife,

Semiramis, propagated the evil doctrine of the survival

of Nimrod as a spirit being. She claimed a full-grown

evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead tree stump,

which symbolized the springing forth unto new life

of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth,

she claimed, Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree

and leave gifts upon it. December 25th, was the birthday

of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree."

-The Plain Truth About Christmas

by David J. Stewart | December 24th, 2005

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Traditionally, a yule log was burned in the fireplace

on Christmas Eve and during the night as the log's embers

died, there appeared in the room, as if by magic,

a Christmas tree surrounded by gifts. The yule log

represented the sun-god Nimrod and the Christmas tree

represented himself resurrected as his own son Tammuz."

--After Armageddon -Chapter 4

Where do we get our ideas?

by John A. Sarkett

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Real Origin of Christmas

"The real origin of Christmas goes back to ancient

Babylon. It is bound up in the organized apostasy

with which Satan has gripped a deceived world these

many centuries! In Egypt, it was always believed that

the son of Iris (Egyptian name for "Queen of Heaven")

was born December 25th. Semiramis also bore the title

"Queen of Heaven" - and she was Nimrod's mother.

Paganism celebrated this famous birthday over most

of the known world for centuries before the birth

of Christ."

-The Plain Truth About Christmas

by David J. Stewart | December 24th, 2005

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Christmas as a pagan holiday traces back

thousands of years before to a man named Nimrod,

founder of ancient pagan Babylon."

-Christmas Unwrapped

From the History Channel

by Alan Mansager

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"December 25 was highly honored and recognized

by Nimrod's supporters...Many centuries later

this pagan custom was "Christianized" as being

the birthday of Christ."

-The True Origin of Christmas and Other Holidays

Who Was Really Born On December 25?

The Gilead Institute of America

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Lent, Easter and Christmas are of Babylonian origin."

-EASTER AND CHRISTMAS PAGANISM

2000 B.C. TO DATE

by Edward Stevens (1895-1966)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"December 25th was celebrated as

Nimrod's birthday. Generally, all mankind

is fast asleep, dreaming this old Babylonian dream."

-The Story Of Nimrod,

As It Relates To Christmas And Easter

by Wilhelm J Wolfaardt

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Deception of Satan

"Jesus Christ was NOT born on December 25.

But December 25th can be traced back to Genesis

and a man named Nimrod. Nimrod was the founder

of a great false religious system that began in

ancient Babylon that has always opposed the truths

of God. It’s time we face facts! This world is deceived,

just as God prophesied it would be (Rev. 12:9).

Satan is the power behind this deception.

Satan has successfully pawned off the old customs

of the Babylonian mystery religion as being pleasing

to Jesus Christ."

- Why Christmas is (Not) So Important to God

By Carl Hilliker and Mark Jenkins December 2002

article in; The Trumpet

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Corruption Against Jehovah God

"As the people increased in number,

the Way of Jehovah was corrupted

and a principal figure in those days was Nimrod,

the grandson of Ham described as a mighty hunter

before Jehovah. The word 'before' used in this

sense means, 'totally antagonistic to Jehovah.'

We celebrate Christmas on a date which coincides

with the birthday of Nimrod - the villainous king

of ancient Babylon."

-The Ensign Trust

VOLUME I No.2 - JUNE 1999

'NARROW IS THE WAY'

By Harry Lancaster

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Nimrod, who built Babel or Babylon, conceived a

one world government model in rebellion against

Jehovah-God and went about to establish a one world

government in the land of Shinar (which is today

known as Iraq) and institute a pagan worship system

that rejected the Lord God Jehovah."

-- The Book; THE HISTORY OF HALLOWEEN

The Nimrod - Druid Connection

Pastor David L. Brown, Ph.D.

© September 1998

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Not only has the original Babylonian religious system

served as the source of all the world’s non-Christian

religions, hut it has also infiltrated and corrupted

Christendom to an alarming degree."

--Babylon - Source of False Religion

"Babylon, Mystery Religion" by Ralph Woodrow "Nimrod was a great grandson of Noah.

Nimrod became a "mighty tyrant in the face of Jehovah."

Much of the Babylonian worship was carried on through

mysterious symbols - thus the "Mystery" religion.

This system of idolatry spread from Babylon to the

nations, for it was from this location that men were

scattered over the face of the earth (Gen. 11:9).

As they went from Babylon, they took their occult

worship and its various mystery symbols with them."

--Babylon - Source of False Religion

"Babylon, Mystery Religion" by Ralph Woodrow

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Nimrod and - His Mother - Semiramis

were the -- "MODELS" --

after which Satan Fashioned

all other False gods and goddesses "Thus from Babylon emerged the entire complex of

human "religion". the various gods and goddesses

of Rome, Greece, India, Egypt, and other nations

can be identified with corresponding gods from Babel."

--Babylon - Source of False Religion

"Babylon, Mystery Religion" by Ralph Woodrow~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Christendom is Tied to False gods

Christendom will not admit, that by compromising with the pagans of

the world when adopting December 25th as Christ's birthday - they have

tied themselves into honoring all the pagan gods of the world.

How so ? Almost all the pagan gods - who are nothing more than "Nimrod" reincarnated,

all claim December 25th as their birthday. The list is exhaustive.

Many False Gods - Whose Birthday was "December 25"

Fashioned After "NIMROD"

"December 25th - not only was Mithra, the sun-god of

Mithraism, said to be born at this time of the year,

but Osiris, Horus, Hercules, Bacchus, Adonis, Jupiter,

Tammuz, and other sun-gods were also supposedly born

at what is today called the "Christmas" season, the winter solstice!

- Doane, p.474;

- "The Two Babylons; Alexander Hislop, p.93.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The "winter solstice (December) was the time at which all the

sun-gods "from Osiris to Jupiter" and Mithra had celebrated

their (birthdays) - the celebration being adorned with

the pine tree of Adonis, the holly of Saturn, and the

mistletoe (of the pagan Druids).....tapers(candles) represented

the kindling of the newborn sun-god's fire..."

-Man and His Gods, p.201.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Subtly...the old gods had entered their churches...

And they live still in the festivals of Christianity."

-(Testament: The Bible and History,

Romer, 1988, pp. 230-31)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In Sharp Contrast to Jesus

And here we have Jesus Christ who was born in a warm month when the

flocks were still outdoors at night - as ample proof that a compromise has been

made. December 25th was celebrated by the pagans in Christ's day, but

he and his early followers would have NO PART of it.

"It is evident that Jesus was NOT born during the middle of winter,

for at the time of his birth, the shepherds were living out in the fields

with their flocks. As the bible says: 'There were in the same country

shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night"

(Luke 2:8). As is well known, the shepherds in Palestine do NOT

"abide in the fields" during the winter season because of the extreme,

cold temperatures. The shepherds always bring their flocks in

from the mountain slopes and fields no later than October 15th! "

- Mede's Works, 1679. Discourse xlvii ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Christ's First Followers -

REFUSED to Celebrate December 25th

"On your day of gladness, we [Christians] neither cover

our doorposts with wreaths, nor intrude upon the day with lamps.

At the call of public festivity, you consider it a proper thing

to decorate your house like some new brothel.

We are accused of a lower sacrilege because

we do not celebrate along with you the holidays ..."

- (Tertullian, (A.D. 155-220), 2001, p. 1176).

(quoted by David Bercot, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs,

1998, p. 342).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The pagan Romans clad their doorposts with green and branching

laurels...In the Saturnalia...Presents come and go...There are...gifts...

and Banquets...yet Christians should have no acquaintance with

the festivals of the pagans."

- Tertullian, (A.D. 155-220),

quoted by David Bercot,

A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, 1998, p. 342).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"In the days of Christ, December 25th

was sacred to the pagan Romans..."

-The Xmas Story Part 4

"Heathen Holidays" by Denise Snodgrass

CHRISTMAS AND PAGANISM; The Winter Solstice

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Familiar to early Christians was the Saturnalia,

an ancient Roman festival celebrated during the

last days of December in honour of Saturn, the god

of agriculture. The Saturnalia...was diametrically

opposed to the teachings of Christ."

- Hidden Truths About Christmas

UCG; Australia

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To the pagans, the Saturnalia was fun.

To the Christians, the Saturnalia was an

abomination in homage to a disreputable god

who had no existence anyway."

-4,000 Years of Christmas:

A Gift from the Ages (1997)

Earl Count

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"At the time of persecution,

Christians were detected

by NOT decorating their houses

at the Saturnalia. The ancient Christians

were puritanically jealous of anything that

might seem like coqueting with idolatry. "

-Crippen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Gift Giving - during the Roman festival of Saturnalia,

gifts were given as good luck emblems and houses were

decorated with greenery. The early Christians, however,

frowned on this pagan ritual, and wouldn't have any part of it."

- Christmas Traditions & Trivia

1999 HFCWillcox

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Faithful men of God who knew and loved

the Scriptures of truth fought against

the mingling of paganism with the name of Christ.

They were valiant in opposing the entry of

Christmas and its festivals among the believers."

-The Truth about CHRISTMAS

Flee from Idolatry

by R. F. Becker~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"The early Christians discouraged the use of

evergreen decorations in Christian homes and

assemblies, because their display had long been

associated with heathen festivals."

-Campbell ; The Story of Christmas

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But how quick Christendom was - to jump in bed with paganism.

No wonder she is called a whore.

"Babylon" - The Great

Jumping in Bed with Paganism

Spiritual Adultery / Spiritual Fornication "Christianity has jumped in bed with paganism!"

-The Surprising Origin of CHRISTMAS!

William F. Dankenbring and John D. Keyser`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The wicked apostate Church fornicated spiritually

with the heathen, pagan religions of the world,

and "ADOPTED" the date of December 25th

as the "birth-day" of Jesus the Messiah,

who was born nowhere NEAR that time of year!"

-The Surprising Origin of CHRISTMAS!

William F. Dankenbring and John D. Keyser

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Christmas...was not instituted by Christ

or the apostles, nor by Bible authority.

It was picked up afterward from paganism.”

-Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 edition

[other one]

Paganism in Christmas Part 2, by Roy A. Reinhold

Oh how people love to participate in all the man-made aspects of Christmas; the glittering lights, the evergreen tree, the giving of presents, and the entire merchant push for their biggest sales period of the year. While some Christians will say that "we ought not commercialize Christmas", or "let's put Christ back in Christmas", those are just slogans to perpetuate what is a pagan festival.

When Did Christmas Originate?

One prolific writer in the early church fathers was Irenaeus, the bishop over all the churches of Asia Minor. He was designated a saint by the Roman Catholic church, and was the bishop following John the apostle and Polycarp. Irenaeus was bishop in about 170-180 AD, and wrote about all the church observances. Nowhere is Christmas mentioned or the observance of a day for the supposed birth of Yeshua. You can read Irenaeus' writings in English at the Wheaton University website, and check it out for yourself.

The Catholic encyclopedia states that shortly after the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, a pope assigned December 25th as the day for observing the birth of Yeshua. Then in the 5th century AD, another pope made it church law, that all Christians would observe December 25 as Christmas, forever. Think about it, the date of December 25 was chosen over 300 years after the death of Yeshua, as the date of His birth; and 400 years afterwards it was institutionalized as a mandatory church observance. The same bunch who changed the Sabbath from the 7th day of the week to the first, also decided to create Christmas.

Emperor Constantine was the ringleader in this process, using Christianity to gain greater political power over the people. The following edict is his exact decree on March 7, 321 AD, formalizing Sunday in place of the Sabbath.

"On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations, the bounty of heaven should be lost."

There was a dual observance of Saturday and Sunday for a while, but the Council of Laodicea in 364 AD institutionalized Sunday observances with the following edict:

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's Day they shall honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ."

The Eastern Orthodox bishop of Alexandria also instituted these practices in concert with the Roman Catholic church, laying the groundwork for the Eastern Orthodox also observing Sunday. They (Rome) later excommunicated any who were keeping the Sabbath on Saturday. I won't even dwell on the anti-semitism institutionalized in the church at that time, because pope John Paul II has recognized it and apologized for that and other mistakes through the centuries.

Why am I bringing up changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday in this discussion of Christmas? Because they are tied together. The popes ordered Christmas to be instituted on the birthday of Sol the sun-god, because the Roman pagans already observed Sunday to honor Sol and the winter solstice period was already observed as Sol's birthday. This was an overt means to convince the people that Sol and Yeshua were the same person. The winter solstice occurs on December 21, and Saturnalia was kept from December 17-24. Then on December 25, Brumalia was the celebration of the rebirth of the sun-god. This is called Mithraism.

Who was Sol the sun-god? It was a continuation of the Baal worship from ancient days. It was present in Egypt and back to ancient Babylon. December 25 is the birth day of Tammuz, the son of Semiramis, and the rebirth of Nimrod. The ancient legend is that a green tree sprang up on Brumalia, with the stump symbolizing Nimrod (Baal) and the green tree Tammuz. This festival is nothing more than witchcraft institutionalized in the church today as Christmas. It is Baal worship. Many Christians hold up their noses over ancient Israel who worshiped YHVH and also worshiped the baals. They think they would never do such things themselves. However, they are practicing the same Baal worship that people were criticized in the scriptures for, over 2500 years ago..

The northern Europeans worshiped the same gods from ancient Babylon, but under the name Odin, who was the equivalent of Sol (Baal). The evergreen fir tree was sacred to Odin and people decorated it during the festival of Saturnalia. Legend has it that Odin would bestow yuletide gifts to those who approached the sacred fir tree on Brumalia. The giving of presents on December 25 happened long before Rome arbitrarily chose December 25 as the supposed birth day of Yeshua. The stories about St. Nicholas being the origination of giving presents is merely church spin to try and put a christian face on what was a pagan custom done for hundreds of years. Throughout the scriptures, the worship with the green tree is condemned, and we know this refers to the evergreen tree, because every tree is green part of the year. It is the evergreen tree that is green all year round. In ancient pagan Rome, the fir tree also was sacred and they decorated it with red berries and silver and gold during the festival of Saturnalia.

Yes, you can give presents to people, it is your right to spend your money as you choose. However, it is somewhat strange that you would do it on December 25 to perpetuate the ancient customs on Brumalia. Why not do it at the fall of the year when Yeshua was actually born? Is it because you love the pagan practices?

You say you do these things because you choose to, and yet what you do in celebrating Christmas is to perpetuate the ancient Babylonian customs. What part of Christmas did you think up? or is it some sort of defensiveness, that you object in your mind to this article because it exposes your love for the pagan practices?

What about sparkly spherical balls hung on the evergreen tree to symbolize the sun? What about the silver and gold tinsel with which you lovingly decorate your evergreen tree? And you wonder when reading Revelation 17 and 18 about Mystery Babylon, where it could be located today?

Where did the mistletoe come from? It is from ancient Babylon, Rome, northern European pagan practices, and from the Druids of England and Ireland. The mistletoe is thought to give magical healing powers to pagan practitioners on December 25. What about the yuletide log? It too came from Odin worship and back to ancient Babylon. The yuletide log symbolizes the stump for Nimrod (Baal) and the evergreen tree his rebirth through Tammuz on December 25.

Isn't it amazing that when the Spanish conquerors invaded Central America, that they discovered that the pagans already observed Saturnalia and Brumalia at the winter solstice, and recognized the madonna and child? That's because Baal worship from ancient times pictured Semiramis and Tammuz as madonna and child on Brumalia, December 25. These pagan people in Central America also kept a 40 day fast in the spring (Lent) leading up to the spring fertility festival at the spring equinox festival to honor Semiramis.

There is nothing Christian about Christmas except man-made overlays to the ancient pagan practices condemned throughout the scriptures. Can you honestly defend these practices with a straight face? I doubt it. Or do you want to defend the practices of Mystery Babylon? Your call.

If you are Catholic, you might feel compelled to defend the practice of Christmas because it is ordered by the church. Did you know that Tertullian omitted Christmas from his list of church observances and condemned the creeping methods employed by some to make Sol (sun-god) practices part of the church? Did you know that Augustine bitterly denounced the identification of Jesus with Sol, the sun-god? Did you know that pope Leo I denounced solar survivals, where Christians on the very steps of the Apostles basilica, turned to adore the rising sun?

Or maybe you're Lutheran, and gaze fondly at the Advent wreath hung so lovingly at the front of the church. It's craft is apparent with the evergreen boughs and red berries from the ancient pagan practices. Solemnly, you light a new candle every week during the weeks leading up to the Advent of the rising sun with the candles representing the new light of the sun. Then on Christmas, the birth day of the Sun God, you light the central candle and celebrate the risen Sun god Sol (Baal). Who do you think you're kidding? We know that Yeshua was born in the fall of the year.

Let's face it, the practices of Christmas are thoroughly pagan. Yeshua was born in the fall of the year at approximately Tishri 15 (newer article pinpoints it to Tishri 1, see below), the beginning of the Feast of Tabernacles (Succoth). The leading early church fathers denounced these things. Do you want to defend your practices based on later edicts of the Catholic church designed to control and tax the peasantry? Hello!!! Are you by choice deciding to be the controlled peasantry today?

I won't even go into the effect that lying about Santa Claus has on children. It is certainly repeated in families all over the world, where after children find out that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are lies, that they realize their parents cannot be trusted. It introduces a breaking of the bond between child and parent, and after all, isn't Satan's objective to divide and conquer?

Christmas is paganism plain and simple, and no amount of arguing to defend it will change the facts. You can have and love your pagan mythic practices, but don't tell me or anyone else this is from God our Father. The exact birthdate of Yeshua (Jesus) is pinpointed in a newer 5-part article on this website as Tishri 1, 3759 (September 11, 3 BC). Please read that to see the very compelling evidence from the Bible code and other more scholarly works that all serve to identify the exact day and time that Yeshua was born.

http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Christianity/christmas2.html

[other one]

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[other one]

I guess we're all wrong....

[Watchman Neo]

After having been through this very discussion on other boards over the last decade, one thing comes to mind: it is not pagan to celebrate the birth of our Lord, nor is it pagan to designate a season for such celebration. I've known all about the so-called pagan roots of Christmas for many moons...but do not recognize them as being the reason for my celebration...any more than I recognize Sunday as being a day to worship the sun. The season is, for me, about our Lord Jesus Christ...and not about a bunch of heathen nonsense that I don't celebrate.

blessings,

Watchman Neo

[Guest shiloh357]

You're making it possible for Satan to confuse people about the gospel..... and that's a serious thing.

We were told not to learn the ways of the heathen, to worship our God the ways that the heathen worship their gods and in a way that is really what we do. Is it a sin...... I'll let Jesus decide that, but I know from interfacing with a lot of people that it isn't good.

Really?? Well then, to be consistent, you need to stop going to church. The word "church" is anglicized from a Teutonic word that means "circle." The ancient Druids used to meet in a "kirke" every first day of the week to worship the son. The word Kirke is directly related to the circle of the sun.

So you will need to cease your pagainistic churchgoing. Oh and don't celebrate the resurrection of Jesus cause that isn't commanded in the Bible either.

Can you not see just how ridiculous the whole "pagan" notion is??? God commanded Israel not to adopt overt pagan ritualism, such as boiling baby goats in the milk of their mother, constructing images of Him and worshipping said images. He commanded Israelite priests not to tatoo images of gods on tjheir bodies like the pagan priests did, or to practice necromancy, diviniation, and other such occultic practices. That is what God was talking about.

Christmas is, for the most part only 700 years old and originated in Christian Europe. The Christmas tree, the nativity scene, and all of that are only around 700 years old and have nothing to do with ancient near east pagan practices.

You need to get a grip on REAL facts, and not this revisionist nonsense.

You keep saying the same thing and Chuck, Tom and David keep saying another.....

You can pepper me with quotes from a billion people who are saying what you are saying. What you cannot seem to provide though, is historical evidence that those claims are really true. If Christmas is of pagan orgin, then you should be able to find modern "pagan" traditions in the historical and archeological past. You should be able to produce REAL historical documentation that shows our modern "pagan" traditions being practiced by ancient men in various cultures, such as Egyptian, Assyrian, Greek, Babylonian, Roman, Hittite, etc.

That is where you conspiracy theorists always fall short. You can make a lot of noise, but in the end your claims are empty and fall flat for want of REAL historical, archeological or scientific corroboration. All of your cut and pastes of lists don't make up for your shallow, meaningless assertions. Try coming up with something real and verfiable.

I guess we're all wrong....

That depends on whether or not your claims represent documentable, verifiable history.

[Floatingaxe]

"The Plain Truth About Christmas"?? Sounds like something from Armstrongism.

Who cares what some imaginary person called Nimrod---not the real king---did? Now THAT was a pagan belief, but we as Christians are not pagan. Far from it. We simply desire to remember the fact that God became flesh and entered history as a baby, and grew and lived among us, and became the Saviour of all mankind.

[nebula]

Other One -

I have to follow suit with OneLight - how is chopping down an evergreen tree, setting it up in the living room, and decorating it with pretty things an act of worship?

How is the tree being worshiped?

How is worship to anything being performed?

What makes it something more than mere decoration?

[other one]

Other One -

I have to follow suit with OneLight - how is chopping down an evergreen tree, setting it up in the living room, and decorating it with pretty things an act of worship?

How is the tree being worshiped?

How is worship to anything being performed?

What makes it something more than mere decoration?

Neb, go to goggle and do a search on Zeitgeist and watch the first hour of that video....... I personally know many many people who have bought into that video and will never ever accept the gospel, and it's largely due to the non Biblical things that Christianity at large has accepted as OK concerning the Birth of Christ and the things that are done to celebrate Christmas.

It will cost the souls of people I know personally....... so it's not as simple a thing as looking into the Bible and showing you that the bible says not to do something. I do remember somewhere God telling the Israelites not to copy the things they saw the people in the lands he was sending them into for he did not want to be worshiped that way...... and when you say to people that a Christmas tree reminds you of Jesus, that really is what you're doing; you will be letting compare what you say and do to what the pagans did/do to Nimrod..

As for not posting those places where the Nimrod story comes from, it's kind of hard to do with all the totally vial stuff that is only one click away from most of those sites........ that's why Chuck, Tom and David don't put the stuff up front on their sites as well, but just tell you about what it is.

When these two threads started I really didn't have a problem with you guys having Christmas, but I've received a couple of emails from old work friends trying to sell me on that video and wondering how in the world I could have let myself get involved in all that copycat Christian stuff.....

So just how serious is it that three of my old work friends might go to hell over how you guys celebrate Christmas if I can't convince them that you guys are wrong that that video has no value for the pagan things it refers to have nothing to do with Christ. You see Neb, I have no doubt that you will not be affected by having your Christmas..... but how will it affect the knowledge and decisions of others.

And how responsible are we when we affect others view of the gospel in a negative way.

It's not as simple as looking at a verse and telling you that the Bible says not to do that...... it's as simple as I now know that unless something changes, several of my personal long term acquaintances may actually go to hell over the way I/we have celebrated christmas.

Anyway, I've had my say and unless you want me to post some really ugly things about Nimrod I think I've said all I have to say.

[Guest shiloh357]

Neb, go to goggle and do a search on Zeitgeist and watch the first hour of that video....... I personally know many many people who have bought into that video and will never ever accept the gospel, and it's largely due to the non Biblical things that Christianity at large has accepted as OK concerning the Birth of Christ and the things that are done to celebrate Christmas.

Ah, so it is our fault. Some conspiracy kook make a video perverting the meaning and histoy of Christmas and fabricating and revising mythology in order to assign false values to Christmas and because people are led astray from that video, it is our fault they are led astray because we celebrate Christmas???? Do you not see how ridiculous that is???

It will cost the souls of people I know personally....... so it's not as simple a thing as looking into the Bible and showing you that the bible says not to do something.

But that is the result of video, not result of our celebration of Christmas. You are blaming the wrong thing.

I do remember somewhere God telling the Israelites not to copy the things they saw the people in the lands he was sending them into for he did not want to be worshiped that way...... and when you say to people that a Christmas tree reminds you of Jesus, that really is what you're doing; you will be letting compare what you say and do to what the pagans did/do to Nimrod..

The problem is that the Chrstmas tree is only 700 years old and the tradition began in Christian Europe. We aren't copying the pagans, as the pagans did not invent the tradition of the Christmas tree. The Christmas Tree orginiated with Christians; it's a purely Christian tradition.

As for not posting those places where the Nimrod story comes from, it's kind of hard to do with all the totally vial stuff that is only one click away from most of those sites........ that's why Chuck, Tom and David don't put the stuff up front on their sites as well, but just tell you about what it is.

I see and since they put it on their webiste is MUST be true, because we all know that once it goes on a website it's true...

When these two threads started I really didn't have a problem with you guys having Christmas, but I've received a couple of emails from old work friends trying to sell me on that video and wondering how in the world I could have let myself get involved in all that copycat Christian stuff.....

So just how serious is it that three of my old work friends might go to hell over how you guys celebrate Christmas if I can't convince them that you guys are wrong that that video has no value for the pagan things it refers to have nothing to do with Christ. You see Neb, I have no doubt that you will not be affected by having your Christmas..... but how will it affect the knowledge and decisions of others.

And how responsible are we when we affect others view of the gospel in a negative way.

It's not as simple as looking at a verse and telling you that the Bible says not to do that...... it's as simple as I now know that unless something changes, several of my personal long term acquaintances may actually go to hell over the way I/we have celebrated christmas.

That is simply wrong. People don't go to hell over our celebration of Christmas. Your friends are simply believing what they saw in a video (a very poorly made conspiracy theory-type video) and THAT is where the problem lies. The video is wrong and it is what has led your friends astray. Your firends are evidently not in the habit of checking the sources or the information. They are simply taking what they heard and saw and are running with it without first checking to see if the information is accurate and truthful.

In truth, the problem is that the video gave them an excuse to reject Christ. The video is an enabler for what they had already done in their heart. The video makes a bunch of baseless, historically erroneous claims, but they are willing to swallow it all hook, line and sinker, because they rejected Christ any way. Now they have something to throw out to justify their unbelief.