Who's on the 12 Foundations

[just_fish]

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" Rev 21:14 KJV

I heard this read the other day and it struck me -----

--- what names do you think are on the foundations? 11 are easy, but the 12th is the question. What do you think?

Thanks ahead of time for your responses.

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Job 5:17

[joi]

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" Rev 21:14 KJV

I heard this read the other day and it struck me -----

--- what names do you think are on the foundations? 11 are easy, but the 12th is the question. What do you think?

Thanks ahead of time for your responses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Job 5:17

Acts 1

21Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

or:

Perhaps it is Paul, who was chosen while on the road to Damascus, by Jesus him self. Acts 9

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209&version=KJV

I do not think I can out guess anyone as to which of the two it will be.

[just_fish]

Thanks Joi, is this a bad subject????

Not much is known about Matthias. Some traditions hold that he preached in Georgia, some in Egypt, and some to the cannibales in Africa.

Also varying traditions claim he was crucified, stoned, be-headed--others hold he died of old age.

------------------

My thought is that it would be Paul--just because JESUS called all his disciples publically and personally, as was Paul. Matthias was picked by the disciples along with Joseph and then chosen by lots.

We have alot of Paul's writings in the BIBLE with mention from the other disciples, but no mention of Matthias exists other than the Book of Acts (as far as I know).

Just a thought

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Job 5:17

[joi]

Thanks Joi, is this a bad subject????

Not much is known about Matthias. Some traditions hold that he preached in Georgia, some in Egypt, and some to the cannibales in Africa.

Also varying traditions claim he was crucified, stoned, be-headed--others hold he died of old age.

------------------

My thought is that it would be Paul--just because JESUS called all his disciples publically and personally, as was Paul. Matthias was picked by the disciples along with Joseph and then chosen by lots.

We have alot of Paul's writings in the BIBLE with mention from the other disciples, but no mention of Matthias exists other than the Book of Acts (as far as I know).

Just a thought

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Job 5:17

No Bible subject is bad! I simply meant that I do not know for sure, though I rather think it might be Paul.

[nebula]

It could be Paul due to the influence he had over the centuries on the Body of Christ.

But, as joi pointed out, all we can do is guess.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, just_fish.

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" Rev 21:14 KJV

I heard this read the other day and it struck me -----

--- what names do you think are on the foundations? 11 are easy, but the 12th is the question. What do you think?

Thanks ahead of time for your responses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Job 5:17

As a Messianic Jew, who it is makes little difference, IMO. You see, the twelve gates of the city were named for the twelve tribes of Isra'el. Thus, the twelve foundations, being named for the twelve "apostoloi" or the twelve ones sent or commissioned by the Adon Yeshua`, haMashiach Elohiym, are simply being named - being identified - so that one can find his way around in the huge, 1500-mile by 1500-mile by 1500-mile City! Again, I believe that the twelve foundations of the city Yerushalayim haChadashah are foundational LEVELS for a city that is 1500 miles high (based on a 660-foot "stadium" in Latin or "stadios" in Greek)! I believe that the first foundational level will be sunk into the new earth's crust when it lands after the Fire that Kefa (Peter) talks about in 2 Peter 3:7-12.

The twelve tribes around a city such as Yerushalayim haChadashah divide the city into twelve wedges, each wedge centered upon one gate. Thus, each wedge is named for the gate upon which it is centered. There will be an east-southeast gate, an east gate, an east-northeast gate, a north-northeast gate, a north gate, a north-northwest gate, a west-northwest gate, a west gate, a west-southwest gate, a south-southwest gate, a south gate, and a south-southeast gate, and the orders of these gates, I believe, can be found in Ezekiel 48:

Ezekiel 48:31-35

31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there.

KJV

To get a feel for their REAL Hebrew names, one may consult the Complete Jewish Bible or simply look them up in a good concordance with a Hebrew dictionary:

Ezek 48:30-35

30-34 “‘These are the city exits; they are to be named after the tribes of Isra’el, three gates on each of the four sides; the four sides each measure just under one-and-a-half [miles]: on the north, gates named after Re’uven, Y’hudahand Levi; on the east, gates named after Yosef, Binyamin and Dan; on the south, gates named after Shim‘on, Yissakhar and Z’vulun; and on the west, gates named after Gad, Asher and Naftali.

35 “‘The perimeter of [the city] will be just under six [miles] long. And from that day on, the name of the city will be ADONAI Shamah [ADONAI is there].’”

CJB

This is NOT the same city as in Revelation 21 and 22, but is the city that will be the Jerusalem of the Millennium, called "YaHuWH-shameh" instead of "Yerushalayim," which is a slight play on words. This city, as can be seen in verse 35, is significantly smaller in size than the city in Revelation 21 and 22 though larger than the Old City.

One can see that these go around the city in a counterclockwise direction on a map, starting on the east side with the east-southeast gate named after Re`uven. In fact, the center gates on each side of the city will be named "Y'hudah," "Binyamin," "Yissakhar," and "Asher." (East to the traditional Jewish way of thinking would have been "up" or on the top of a map.)

[OneLight]

Shalom, just_fish.

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" Rev 21:14 KJV

I heard this read the other day and it struck me -----

--- what names do you think are on the foundations? 11 are easy, but the 12th is the question. What do you think?

Thanks ahead of time for your responses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Job 5:17

As a Messianic Jew, who it is makes little difference, IMO. You see, the twelve gates of the city were named for the twelve tribes of Isra'el. Thus, the twelve foundations, being named for the twelve "apostoloi" or the twelve ones sent or commissioned by the Adon Yeshua`, haMashiach Elohiym, are simply being named - being identified - so that one can find his way around in the huge, 1500-mile by 1500-mile by 1500-mile City! Again, I believe that the twelve foundations of the city Yerushalayim haChadashah are foundational LEVELS for a city that is 1500 miles high (based on a 660-foot "stadium" in Latin or "stadios" in Greek)! I believe that the first foundational level will be sunk into the new earth's crust when it lands after the Fire that Kefa (Peter) talks about in 2 Peter 3:7-12.

The twelve tribes around a city such as Yerushalayim haChadashah divide the city into twelve wedges, each wedge centered upon one gate. Thus, each wedge is named for the gate upon which it is centered. There will be an east-southeast gate, an east gate, an east-northeast gate, a north-northeast gate, a north gate, a north-northwest gate, a west-northwest gate, a west gate, a west-southwest gate, a south-southwest gate, a south gate, and a south-southeast gate, and the orders of these gates, I believe, can be found in Ezekiel 48:

Ezekiel 48:31-35

31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there.

KJV

To get a feel for their REAL Hebrew names, one may consult the Complete Jewish Bible or simply look them up in a good concordance with a Hebrew dictionary:

Ezek 48:30-35

30-34 “‘These are the city exits; they are to be named after the tribes of Isra’el, three gates on each of the four sides; the four sides each measure just under one-and-a-half [miles]: on the north, gates named after Re’uven, Y’hudahand Levi; on the east, gates named after Yosef, Binyamin and Dan; on the south, gates named after Shim‘on, Yissakhar and Z’vulun; and on the west, gates named after Gad, Asher and Naftali.

35 “‘The perimeter of [the city] will be just under six [miles] long. And from that day on, the name of the city will be ADONAI Shamah [ADONAI is there].’”

CJB

This is NOT the same city as in Revelation 21 and 22, but is the city that will be the Jerusalem of the Millennium, called "YaHuWH-shameh" instead of "Yerushalayim," which is a slight play on words. This city, as can be seen in verse 35, is significantly smaller in size than the city in Revelation 21 and 22 though larger than the Old City.

One can see that these go around the city in a counterclockwise direction on a map, starting on the east side with the east-southeast gate named after Re`uven. In fact, the center gates on each side of the city will be named "Y'hudah," "Binyamin," "Yissakhar," and "Asher." (East to the traditional Jewish way of thinking would have been "up" or on the top of a map.)

But he does have an honest question.

Revelation 21:14

Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This will be in the New Jerusalem and we know the eleven, and Candice offered the twelfth. Do you agree?

[Fez]

I am not sure, but when I read the first post, my first thought was the 12 tribes......

[Zemke]

Beginning with the baptism of John. Does Paul qualify?

I was taught Paul was the 12th and Matthias was a mistake. This teaching led to conjecture to more conjecture. So I stay away from it.

The scripture flows and stays healthy with no room for conjecture when believing Matthias is one of the twelve.

As it is said, to justify a belief that Paul is the 12th, "Matthias is never mentioned again". How has that become a rule of interpreting scripture? The rule of never mention?

I watched a pastor who held to this teaching set up his pastorship with a Mosaic structure of government, because government is not mentioned, and at a point taught " Moses appointed elders and thous elders were never mentioned again, it didn't work, I am not going to appoint elders." He taught "the disciples got ahead of God by picking Mathias so don't you make the same mistake." He vertually land locked the people. Over a year I watched many good believers exit that fellowship and eventually my family did also.. Sad. It started out very well, a move of the Holy Spirit.

Any scripture can become important.

What is clear is the disciples were devoting themselves to prayer and were of one accord and one mind, they read in the scriptures Judas was to be replaced, all agreed, and they did just that. A wonderful clear picture of waiting on God in obedience. The scriptures do not correct this action or imply anywhere the Apostles acted improperly. I won't either.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, OneLight.

Shalom, just_fish.

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" Rev 21:14 KJV

I heard this read the other day and it struck me -----

--- what names do you think are on the foundations? 11 are easy, but the 12th is the question. What do you think?

Thanks ahead of time for your responses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Job 5:17

As a Messianic Jew, who it is makes little difference, IMO. You see, the twelve gates of the city were named for the twelve tribes of Isra'el. Thus, the twelve foundations, being named for the twelve "apostoloi" or the twelve ones sent or commissioned by the Adon Yeshua`, haMashiach Elohiym, are simply being named - being identified - so that one can find his way around in the huge, 1500-mile by 1500-mile by 1500-mile City! Again, I believe that the twelve foundations of the city Yerushalayim haChadashah are foundational LEVELS for a city that is 1500 miles high (based on a 660-foot "stadium" in Latin or "stadios" in Greek)! I believe that the first foundational level will be sunk into the new earth's crust when it lands after the Fire that Kefa (Peter) talks about in 2 Peter 3:7-12.

The twelve tribes around a city such as Yerushalayim haChadashah divide the city into twelve wedges, each wedge centered upon one gate. Thus, each wedge is named for the gate upon which it is centered. There will be an east-southeast gate, an east gate, an east-northeast gate, a north-northeast gate, a north gate, a north-northwest gate, a west-northwest gate, a west gate, a west-southwest gate, a south-southwest gate, a south gate, and a south-southeast gate, and the orders of these gates, I believe, can be found in Ezekiel 48:

Ezekiel 48:31-35

31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there.

KJV

To get a feel for their REAL Hebrew names, one may consult the Complete Jewish Bible or simply look them up in a good concordance with a Hebrew dictionary:

Ezek 48:30-35

30-34 “‘These are the city exits; they are to be named after the tribes of Isra’el, three gates on each of the four sides; the four sides each measure just under one-and-a-half [miles]: on the north, gates named after Re’uven, Y’hudahand Levi; on the east, gates named after Yosef, Binyamin and Dan; on the south, gates named after Shim‘on, Yissakhar and Z’vulun; and on the west, gates named after Gad, Asher and Naftali.

35 “‘The perimeter of [the city] will be just under six [miles] long. And from that day on, the name of the city will be ADONAI Shamah [ADONAI is there].’”

CJB

This is NOT the same city as in Revelation 21 and 22, but is the city that will be the Jerusalem of the Millennium, called "YaHuWH-shameh" instead of "Yerushalayim," which is a slight play on words. This city, as can be seen in verse 35, is significantly smaller in size than the city in Revelation 21 and 22 though larger than the Old City.

One can see that these go around the city in a counterclockwise direction on a map, starting on the east side with the east-southeast gate named after Re`uven. In fact, the center gates on each side of the city will be named "Y'hudah," "Binyamin," "Yissakhar," and "Asher." (East to the traditional Jewish way of thinking would have been "up" or on the top of a map.)

But he does have an honest question.

Revelation 21:14

Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This will be in the New Jerusalem and we know the eleven, and Candice offered the twelfth. Do you agree?

Well, the twelfth "apostolos" or the twelfth "sent-one" was Matthias or Mattityahu in Hebrew, which means "gift of YAHUWH." He WAS selected by the other believers as one of two, but the lot fell upon him, which was how matters were to be decided by God through the instructions given in the Tanakh (the OT, e.g. Num. 26:55-56; 33:54; 34:13; 36:2-3). Anytime that an inheritance was involved, lots were cast, and they believed that God controlled all things random. Thus, it was GOD who ultimately selected Mattityahu. (His Hebrew name is the same as that of Matthew, btw.) These were people selected by the Messiah who were sent among the Jews to announce the arrival of the King during His offer of Himself as God's Messiah to be King - God's Anointed to be King.

Rav Sha`uwl (the Apostle Paul) had a different nomenclature: He may not have been one of the Twelve, but he WAS an "apostolos," a "sent-one." Only his mission was of a different nature. He was sent to the Goyim, the Gentiles:

Romans 11:13-14

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

KJV

Furthermore, there were other "apostoloi" as well:

Acts 14:13-15

13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.

14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

KJV

Thus, Barnabas, too, was an apostle! All the word means is "one who is sent (i.e. on a mission)" or a "missionary." Other words that are related are "emmissary" and "ambassador." And others, too, were sent:

Acts 15:22-27

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

KJV

The bottom line is this: The word "Apostle" is NOT synonymous with the Twelve, and there's nothing significant in the word itself. It simply means "missionary," and therefore, we have "apostles" today because we have "missionaries" today! Therefore, the twelve foundations will have among their names that of Mattityahu as well.