Anglican Church

[Guest yod]

Stopped from what exactly? Maybe you would care to justify what is a fairly sweeping statement and attack on an Anglican minister. If he is doing something wrong or you believe his theology is wrong then please at least be able to say what and defend your comment so that we can learn and understand.

I'm sorry to be so vague in that post, but I've discussed his heretical views many times past and thought everyone would get the reference.

Rev Sizer is one of the leaders, and possible the founder, of the Christian-Palestinianism weirdness which has recently arisen in such blasphemous ways as the "Christ at the Checkpoint" Conference in Bethlehem.

He seems to hate jews so much that he'll compromise the gospel with Islam. Besides that, he seems like a very nice man.

[Guest]

Stopped from what exactly? Maybe you would care to justify what is a fairly sweeping statement and attack on an Anglican minister. If he is doing something wrong or you believe his theology is wrong then please at least be able to say what and defend your comment so that we can learn and understand....

I'm sorry to be so vague in that post, but I've discussed his heretical views many times past and thought everyone would get the reference.

Rev Sizer is one of the leaders, and possible the founder, of the Christian-Palestinianism weirdness which has recently arisen in such blasphemous ways as the "Christ at the Checkpoint" Conference in Bethlehem.

He seems to hate jews so much that he'll compromise the gospel with Islam. Besides that, he seems like a very nice man.....

Nice Man

The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords. Psalms 55:21

Very Nice

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. Joel 3:16-17

[rich08]

Okay - lots of replies: it's going to take me a while to sort all this out. However, I shall make a number of initial comments:

(1) Stephen Sizer (and others) have been the subject of a hate campaign in which abuse has been directed at them on the internet; this is the web equivalent of standing outside someone's house with placards accusing them of various things. This resulted in the "offender" being traced by the police in this country and given a warning. Now of course there are times when obedience to God's word takes precedence over the earthly laws, however the articles I have seen are quotes of quotes of articles written by the "offender" and I urge caution as they are potentially a biased one-sided presentation. Stephen Sizer and others were accused of being anti-Semitic and denying the holocaust - something which they strongly deny.

(2) Stephen Sizer (amongst others - including US Baptist Pastors) support an organisation than supports Palestinian Christians.

(3) There is a debate both within and outside the Anglican church (i.e. across different denominations and in different countries including the US) as to how to handle the Jewish Palestinian question based on (i) how the Bible is interpreted (in terms of it's meaning) and (ii) in what ways it applies to the questions facing the Israel-Palestinian question.

I am not saying this is an easy issue (I think it is a very difficult one); but I do feel that Stephen Sizer is being unfairly attacked based on the misinformation about him found on the internet. Stephen Sizer has his own website. This includes links to those who disagree with his position (including for example the council of Christians and Jews -interesting it includes Anglicans!)

It's is an interesting debate but one that is not confined to the Anglican church. I am happy to explore it - but we need to start with the theological arguments and ensure that (where we refer to people) the viewpoints we present are accurate (including not misquoting or taking things out of context).

[Guest yod]

Okay - lots of replies: it's going to take me a while to sort all this out. However, I shall make a number of initial comments:

(1) Stephen Sizer (and others) have been the subject of a hate campaign in which abuse has been directed at them on the internet; this is the web equivalent of standing outside someone's house with placards accusing them of various things. This resulted in the "offender" being traced by the police in this country and given a warning. Now of course there are times when obedience to God's word takes precedence over the earthly laws, however the articles I have seen are quotes of quotes of articles written by the "offender" and I urge caution as they are potentially a biased one-sided presentation. Stephen Sizer and others were accused of being anti-Semitic and denying the holocaust - something which they strongly deny.

(2) Stephen Sizer (amongst others - including US Baptist Pastors) support an organisation than supports Palestinian Christians.

(3) There is a debate both within and outside the Anglican church (i.e. across different denominations and in different countries including the US) as to how to handle the Jewish Palestinian question based on (i) how the Bible is interpreted (in terms of it's meaning) and (ii) in what ways it applies to the questions facing the Israel-Palestinian question.

I am not saying this is an easy issue (I think it is a very difficult one); but I do feel that Stephen Sizer is being unfairly attacked based on the misinformation about him found on the internet. Stephen Sizer has his own website. This includes links to those who disagree with his position (including for example the council of Christians and Jews -interesting it includes Anglicans!)

It's is an interesting debate but one that is not confined to the Anglican church. I am happy to explore it - but we need to start with the theological arguments and ensure that (where we refer to people) the viewpoints we present are accurate (including not misquoting or taking things out of context).

No, it's much much simpler than that.

He sits in front of a picture of the grand mullah of Iran and tells partial truths designed to deceive. He exaggerates any supposed offenses of Israel and ignores the fact that Palestinians are not entirely innocent.

If he really gave a rip about Palestinian christians, he'd be able to clearly identify their problems stem from their own brutal leaders.

Do you view Yassir Arafat as a decent person? A credible statesman? A trustworthy negotiating partner? How about Abbas, the mastermind behind Black September? Hamas? Hezbollah?

THEY are the problem and anyone who loves the truth can see it. Sizer does not.

The "Christ at the Checkpoint" foolishness was utter hypocrisy, as they tried to blame Israel for the persecution arab Christians. No, sir. THAT is coming from the islamic rulers in Bethlehem. I've been there and subject to it myself. I've supported (and have friends in Israel who support) arab christians all over the land. I have a personal friend who is a muslim from Bethlehem who can testify about his brother being brutally tortured and then murdered for extortion money by the Palestinian Authority. He has no problem with Israel.

The Palestinian Authority ran the Baptist church out of Bethlehem because they wouldn't support that cynical lie of a "conference", whose only purpose was for propaganda.

There are so many example of Israel treating the Palestinians better than their counterpart leaders in the surrounding countries do, and yet have we have heard Sizer protesting the Coptics of Eygpt being murdered by the muslims? How about in Ethiopia, Sudan or the wonderful mullahs of Iran to whom Sizer is a hero? One example: Israeli hospitals see hundreds of arabs (who want to destroy Israel) daily. How many jews do you think are welcome in arab hospitals?

Palestinian children are still being taught (in violation of treaties made with Israel) that Jews are monkeys and pigs. The 5 & 6 year-olds are going to summer school to learn how to be a suicide bomber, while Israel kids are learning mathematics.

There is absolutely NO moral equivalence as Mr Sizer has attempted to portray, yet he is actively seeking political means to divide those who trust in the sure Word of God from those who can be manipulated through theological double-speak.

Besides that, he seems like a very nice man....but I am so glad to finally hear that there are people in England protesting him!

Hurray! I join them!

[rich08]

Okay - lots of replies: it's going to take me a while to sort all this out. However, I shall make a number of initial comments:

(1) Stephen Sizer (and others) have been the subject of a hate campaign in which abuse has been directed at them on the internet; this is the web equivalent of standing outside someone's house with placards accusing them of various things. This resulted in the "offender" being traced by the police in this country and given a warning. Now of course there are times when obedience to God's word takes precedence over the earthly laws, however the articles I have seen are quotes of quotes of articles written by the "offender" and I urge caution as they are potentially a biased one-sided presentation. Stephen Sizer and others were accused of being anti-Semitic and denying the holocaust - something which they strongly deny.

(2) Stephen Sizer (amongst others - including US Baptist Pastors) support an organisation than supports Palestinian Christians.

(3) There is a debate both within and outside the Anglican church (i.e. across different denominations and in different countries including the US) as to how to handle the Jewish Palestinian question based on (i) how the Bible is interpreted (in terms of it's meaning) and (ii) in what ways it applies to the questions facing the Israel-Palestinian question.

I am not saying this is an easy issue (I think it is a very difficult one); but I do feel that Stephen Sizer is being unfairly attacked based on the misinformation about him found on the internet. Stephen Sizer has his own website. This includes links to those who disagree with his position (including for example the council of Christians and Jews -interesting it includes Anglicans!)

It's is an interesting debate but one that is not confined to the Anglican church. I am happy to explore it - but we need to start with the theological arguments and ensure that (where we refer to people) the viewpoints we present are accurate (including not misquoting or taking things out of context).

No, it's much much simpler than that.

He sits in front of a picture of the grand mullah of Iran and tells partial truths designed to deceive. He exaggerates any supposed offenses of Israel and ignores the fact that Palestinians are not entirely innocent.

If he really gave a rip about Palestinian christians, he'd be able to clearly identify their problems stem from their own brutal leaders.

Do you view Yassir Arafat as a decent person? A credible statesman? A trustworthy negotiating partner? How about Abbas, the mastermind behind Black September? Hamas? Hezbollah?

THEY are the problem and anyone who loves the truth can see it. Sizer does not.

The "Christ at the Checkpoint" foolishness was utter hypocrisy, as they tried to blame Israel for the persecution arab Christians. No, sir. THAT is coming from the islamic rulers in Bethlehem. I've been there and subject to it myself. I've supported (and have friends in Israel who support) arab christians all over the land. I have a personal friend who is a muslim from Bethlehem who can testify about his brother being brutally tortured and then murdered for extortion money by the Palestinian Authority. He has no problem with Israel.

The Palestinian Authority ran the Baptist church out of Bethlehem because they wouldn't support that cynical lie of a "conference", whose only purpose was for propaganda.

There are so many example of Israel treating the Palestinians better than their counterpart leaders in the surrounding countries do, and yet have we have heard Sizer protesting the Coptics of Eygpt being murdered by the muslims? How about in Ethiopia, Sudan or the wonderful mullahs of Iran to whom Sizer is a hero? One example: Israeli hospitals see hundreds of arabs (who want to destroy Israel) daily. How many jews do you think are welcome in arab hospitals?

Palestinian children are still being taught (in violation of treaties made with Israel) that Jews are monkeys and pigs. The 5 & 6 year-olds are going to summer school to learn how to be a suicide bomber, while Israel kids are learning mathematics.

There is absolutely NO moral equivalence as Mr Sizer has attempted to portray, yet he is actively seeking political means to divide those who trust in the sure Word of God from those who can be manipulated through theological double-speak.

Besides that, he seems like a very nice man....but I am so glad to finally hear that there are people in England protesting him!

Hurray! I join them!

Thank you for your reply.

I am not sure why you have specifically decided to attack the position held by Stephen Sizer when he is only one among many Christian leaders from around the world who hold to this stance.

I have read through the affirmations of 'Christ at the Checkpoint' - it appears that this organisation is eager to spread the gospel to both Arab and Jew alike - admittedly I have not researched the organisation in detail.

I am not sure how Mr Sizer is responsible for the teachings in schools or who is treated in hospitals.

I expect that the difficulty here is the issue of Zionism. There are different interpretations: Stephen Sizer (and many others) have adopted one position and it would be logical to conclude that you disagree. This is a complex issue - if you can assist with a Biblical defence of your position then that would help me to understand where you are coming from. You criticise his theology but do not present any theological position or defence of your own.

To answer your question about Yasser Arafat etc. let me be perfectly clear: I do not support anyone who advances political positions by violence, threats, lies or deceit or whatever nationality or ethnic background.

I am not saying I agree with Mr Sizer or his possession on Zionism: but he is one of many Christians who are attempting to work out from the Bible what this means and how it applies to the the current situation in Palestine.

[Guest yod]

Thank you sir for being a reasonable person. It's not that complicated if one takes about 10 minutes to investigate the characters

The theology has been exhaustively refuted on these boards many times. I'll be very happy to go over it all point by point but driving a lot in the next few days.

Almost anyone here could do the basics though. Sizers position is wrong on every level: spiritually, theologically, factually, and politically

[rich08]

Thank you sir for being a reasonable person.

No need to call me Sir - Richard is fine. But I appreciate the courtesy

Sizers position is wrong on every level: spiritually, theologically, factually, and politically

Maybe: but those who adhere to that position would state exactly the same about your stance. Hence my desire to look into the Biblical arguments to understand.

From what I can establish thus far, one's hermeneutical tool for deciding how to interpret the Bible determines the conclusions that result. It simple terms it depends on how literally you apply the Bible (to what extent that you allow for allegory and symbolism) and how you apply prophecies in the Bible regarding Israel (in that have they already been fulfilled in OT Israel, whether they are fulfilled or will be fulfilled in a 'new' Israel - i.e. the church - or whether their is a future fulfilment for a physical Israel). [i have summarised the different positions here.]

So if you believe the Bible should be interpreted using tool A your will end up with interpretation X and from that flows your approach to the Israel-Palestine problem.

Conversely if you believe the Bible should be interpreted using tool B you end up with interpretation Y and from that flows a different approach.

Now I should say that both conservatives and liberals take opposing viewpoints for different reasons. But Stephen Sizer and many others take their position and would argue and defend it using Scripture.

Of course we have come a long way from the origin of this forum relating to the Anglican church and maybe this need to be debated elsewhere; it is not an issue unique to the Anglican church.

[Guest yod]

I am not sure why you have specifically decided to attack the position held by Stephen Sizer when he is only one among many Christian leaders from around the world who hold to this stance.

Sir Richard,

I hate trying to post when I don't have a LOT of time. In a rush to finish it can come across as "short" when I get right to the point. Plus, it takes time to post the references of what I'm trying to explain for people who haven't kept up with the boards before...but here goes.

Stephen Sizer is the most vocal and active leader of the push to isolate christian zionists from the rest of the Body. He has not hidden the fact that he wants to silence zionists in America because we are Israel's most influential friends and without us, they have no support in the USA...or the world.

But his methods for opposing us are not purely theological. I would welcome a public debate of his theological position but his political activism makes it clear that he has sided with terrorists against the jews already.

I have read through the affirmations of 'Christ at the Checkpoint' - it appears that this organisation is eager to spread the gospel to both Arab and Jew alike .

So am I, but there is no better way to spread the gospel than by telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Christian zionists are not "against" anyone! We are "for" life and believe that everyone deserves it. I know quite a few zionists and we regularly pray for the arab people and provide humanitarian support where we aren't killed for trying.

This conference was framed against the truth from the very beginning though. Even the title tries to suggest that Jesus is suffering at the checkpoint of Bethlehem. Well, it is a hassle to go through that checkpoint, but you ought to see how much more He suffers inside Palestinian controlled areas! He is not allowed there at all and that is why Bethlehem is down from 90% christian arabs to less than 10%.

Have you ever been through that checkpoint? I have, and it is as humiliating has being searched by the TSA when you board a plane. I can totally understand why anyone would despise being examined at a military checkpoint every time they try to leave the city or go home...but Sizer ignores the reason why that is necessary. He ignores the reason why Israel has to build a wall to keep suicide bombers from walking across the border. He ignores the fact that one side of this problem (arabs) has consistently sworn to destroy the Jews and show no signs of relenting.

Until those factors are taken into account, there can not be a serious discussion of a peaceable resolution, and Israel can not be blamed for trying to protect their citizens (Jews, Christians, and Muslims!) from being murdered.

Instead, Sizer has his picture taken with the very people who are behind such wickedness. He proudly displays himself in the arms of Arafat, Iranians mullahs, and practically anyone calling for the destruction of Israel.

I am not sure how Mr Sizer is responsible for the teachings in schools or who is treated in hospitals.

those are 2 separate references:

1. As a "christian leader", he should be demanding that his friends stop indoctrinating small children into a life of hatred and murder.

2. The point about hospitals was to illustrate that Israel is NOT trying to kill nor harm anyone. They help jews and arabs alike, when given the opportunity. This is why christian arabs have left Bethlehem and moved into Israel proper, instead of staying in Palestinian controlled areas where they are being slaughtered by Palestinian muslims with the approval of arab leaders.

I am not saying I agree with Mr Sizer or his possession on Zionism: but he is one of many Christians who are attempting to work out from the Bible what this means and how it applies to the the current situation in Palestine.

It's one thing to have a disagreement among brothers, but quite another to provide cover for murderers politically, theologically, and actively. Stephen Sizer may not be the only one doing so, but he joins a list of people who are just dishonest about the situation. I want to give everyone the benefit of doubt if they are doing so in ignorance, but I believe all doubt has been removed when it comes to Sizer and his network.

And until the Anglican church renounces Sizer, this is very relevant to the Anglican church discussion.

.

[rich08]

I am not sure why you have specifically decided to attack the position held by Stephen Sizer when he is only one among many Christian leaders from around the world who hold to this stance.

Sir Richard,

I hate trying to post when I don't have a LOT of time. In a rush to finish it can come across as "short" when I get right to the point. Plus, it takes time to post the references of what I'm trying to explain for people who haven't kept up with the boards before...but here goes.

Stephen Sizer is the most vocal and active leader of the push to isolate christian zionists from the rest of the Body. He has not hidden the fact that he wants to silence zionists in America because we are Israel's most influential friends and without us, they have no support in the USA...or the world.

But his methods for opposing us are not purely theological. I would welcome a public debate of his theological position but his political activism makes it clear that he has sided with terrorists against the jews already.

I have read through the affirmations of 'Christ at the Checkpoint' - it appears that this organisation is eager to spread the gospel to both Arab and Jew alike .

So am I, but there is no better way to spread the gospel than by telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Christian zionists are not "against" anyone! We are "for" life and believe that everyone deserves it. I know quite a few zionists and we regularly pray for the arab people and provide humanitarian support where we aren't killed for trying.

This conference was framed against the truth from the very beginning though. Even the title tries to suggest that Jesus is suffering at the checkpoint of Bethlehem. Well, it is a hassle to go through that checkpoint, but you ought to see how much more He suffers inside Palestinian controlled areas! He is not allowed there at all and that is why Bethlehem is down from 90% christian arabs to less than 10%.

Have you ever been through that checkpoint? I have, and it is as humiliating has being searched by the TSA when you board a plane. I can totally understand why anyone would despise being examined at a military checkpoint every time they try to leave the city or go home...but Sizer ignores the reason why that is necessary. He ignores the reason why Israel has to build a wall to keep suicide bombers from walking across the border. He ignores the fact that one side of this problem (arabs) has consistently sworn to destroy the Jews and show no signs of relenting.

Until those factors are taken into account, there can not be a serious discussion of a peaceable resolution, and Israel can not be blamed for trying to protect their citizens (Jews, Christians, and Muslims!) from being murdered.

Instead, Sizer has his picture taken with the very people who are behind such wickedness. He proudly displays himself in the arms of Arafat, Iranians mullahs, and practically anyone calling for the destruction of Israel.

I am not sure how Mr Sizer is responsible for the teachings in schools or who is treated in hospitals.

those are 2 separate references:

1. As a "christian leader", he should be demanding that his friends stop indoctrinating small children into a life of hatred and murder.

2. The point about hospitals was to illustrate that Israel is NOT trying to kill nor harm anyone. They help jews and arabs alike, when given the opportunity. This is why christian arabs have left Bethlehem and moved into Israel proper, instead of staying in Palestinian controlled areas where they are being slaughtered by Palestinian muslims with the approval of arab leaders.

I am not saying I agree with Mr Sizer or his possession on Zionism: but he is one of many Christians who are attempting to work out from the Bible what this means and how it applies to the the current situation in Palestine.

It's one thing to have a disagreement among brothers, but quite another to provide cover for murderers politically, theologically, and actively. Stephen Sizer may not be the only one doing so, but he joins a list of people who are just dishonest about the situation. I want to give everyone the benefit of doubt if they are doing so in ignorance, but I believe all doubt has been removed when it comes to Sizer and his network.

And until the Anglican church renounces Sizer, this is very relevant to the Anglican church discussion.

.

If you would rather call me Sir than Richard that is fine; however I would prefer Richard - but please not 'Sir Richard' as I have no earthly title or rank! (In England calling someone in that manner normally means they hold a title or have been knighted by the Queen - neither applies to me.)

There is no rush - I am happy to wait until you have the time to sit down a outline the arguments. I understand that you wish to identify Stephen Sizer as one of the main leaders of his position and that you feel his theological stance and actions inappropriate - but I would like to understand the Biblical arguments. At the moment you have critiqued Stephen Sizer's theological position and attacked his actions; whilst it is clear that you differ from his views you have yet to provide the Biblical rational for your stance.

I am aware of the political dimensions especially with regard to the US approach towards Israel. Generally the British government sides with the US on international matters but not always (I am not entirely sure of our current stance). Of course the US approach may be the correct approach - but theology should start by trying to understand the Bible and in as far as possible not allowing our interpretation to be influenced by our own culture.

As for Mr Sizer having his photograph taken with various influential figures in the Middle East (famous or infamous) - I would point out that lots of people have had their photograph taken with Yasser Arafat including the prime ministers of Israel and US president (Bill Clinton).

From my understanding you argue strongly that the Anglican church should remove Mr Sizer and this is therefore not only a criticism of Mr Sizer but of Anglicanism. Mr Sizer adopts a very conservative approach generally in his Biblical theology (one supported by leading evangelicals from around the world). I still feel that is a much bigger issue than relating to the Anglican church as it is a position held by many Christians of different denominations including within the US.

[Guest]

From my understanding you argue strongly that the Anglican church should remove Mr Sizer and this is therefore not only a criticism of Mr Sizer but of Anglicanism. Mr Sizer adopts a very conservative approach generally in his Biblical theology (one supported by leading evangelicals from around the world). I still feel that is a much bigger issue than relating to the Anglican church as it is a position held by many Christians of different denominations including within the US....

There Is No Defense For Mr. Sizer Just As There Is No Defense For The Islamic, His Fellow Haters Of The Jew And Of Israel

I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. Joel 3:2-3

Nor Will There Be One When They Stand Before The KING OF THE JEWS Unless They Repent And Believe

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:40-46

For He Knowingly Stands Foursquare With Those Who Curse Israel And The Land

I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,

And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. Isaiah 62:6-7

And Refuse To Obey God

Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins. Isaiah 40:1-2

Shame

Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour. Ecclesiastes 10:1