Why I cringe when people say it is all about choice

[childeye]

All in all, we all have a choice in life to accept or reject Christ.

This is a presupposition, not validated but refuted by scripture. How is it that you say we all have a choice to accept or reject Christ, yet Paul says this? 1 Corinthians 2:14

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul is saying here that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, and you seem to be under the impression that this natural man has the free choice to do so. Will you then say that once the Holy Spirit ministers to this man, he will eventually choose by his own freewill yeah or nay upon seeing the Truth, when he already was in nay to begin with? When did his freewill to choose begin, when he was halfway between Truth and lies?

Romans 11:25

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:30-31

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[Rekrap]

All in all, we all have a choice in life to accept or reject Christ.

This is a presupposition, not validated but refuted by scripture. How is it that you say we all have a choice to accept or reject Christ, yet Paul says this? 1 Corinthians 2:14

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul is saying here that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, and you seem to be under the impression that this natural man has the free choice to do so. Will you then say that once the Holy Spirit ministers to this man, he will eventually choose by his own freewill yeah or nay upon seeing the Truth, when he already was in nay to begin with? When did his freewill to choose begin, when he was halfway between Truth and lies?

Romans 11:25

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:30-31

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

We are not arguing with this. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and draws us to Him. We and people can not know Him or know of His mercy unless the Holy Spirit leads us to Him. 1 Chor 12:3. It is up to us to decide after the Holy Spirit shows us to accept or reject Him.

[childeye]

All in all, we all have a choice in life to accept or reject Christ.

This is a presupposition, not validated but refuted by scripture. How is it that you say we all have a choice to accept or reject Christ, yet Paul says this? 1 Corinthians 2:14

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul is saying here that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, and you seem to be under the impression that this natural man has the free choice to do so. Will you then say that once the Holy Spirit ministers to this man, he will eventually choose by his own freewill yeah or nay upon seeing the Truth, when he already was in nay to begin with? When did his freewill to choose begin, when he was halfway between Truth and lies?

Romans 11:25

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:30-31

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

We are not arguing with this. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and draws us to Him. We and people can not know Him or know of His mercy unless the Holy Spirit leads us to Him. 1 Chor 12:3. It is up to us to decide after the Holy Spirit shows us to accept or reject Him.

Then we are only arguing the term will vs. freewill since we are in agreement. I have been convinced that men cannot help their sinful condition by the Holy Spirit, and that is why I dislike using the term freewill when saying we freely choose to sin so as to hold others responsible when I myself have no right to judge so. I do however believe through walking in Godly Love a man will not sin, or at least will not cause others any suffering if they can help it. In fact Godly Love does more than the requirements of the law. The key is having Godly Love which comes only through the holy Spirit and not by the will of men. That is my intention with this thread, to glorify God and not the flesh of mankind. Your posts have been very helpful to this end.

1 Corinthians 4:5

King James Version (KJV)

5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

[Floatingaxe]

All in all, we all have a choice in life to accept or reject Christ.

This is a presupposition, not validated but refuted by scripture. How is it that you say we all have a choice to accept or reject Christ, yet Paul says this? 1 Corinthians 2:14

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul is saying here that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, and you seem to be under the impression that this natural man has the free choice to do so. Will you then say that once the Holy Spirit ministers to this man, he will eventually choose by his own freewill yeah or nay upon seeing the Truth, when he already was in nay to begin with? When did his freewill to choose begin, when he was halfway between Truth and lies?

Romans 11:25

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:30-31

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

We are not arguing with this. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and draws us to Him. We and people can not know Him or know of His mercy unless the Holy Spirit leads us to Him. 1 Chor 12:3. It is up to us to decide after the Holy Spirit shows us to accept or reject Him.

This is the truth, and what I have been saying all along, and childeye is in agreement, so what's the problem, childeye? Obviously there is a barrier here, and it appears to be one of your rejecting certain well-accepted terminology.

[childeye]

This is the truth, and what I have been saying all along, and childeye is in agreement, so what's the problem, childeye? Obviously there is a barrier here, and it appears to be one of your rejecting certain well-accepted terminology.

Floating axe, the term freewill is a relative term. When people use it I have a hard time understanding to where they are applying the term free. Free from God, Free from the devil? This that follows is an exchange I had with a friend of mine. I hope this will explain my problems with the term.

In context,

John 16:

7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

(NIV)

How can you NOT realize that this proves that man has free will? The world knows through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Those who believe of their own free will are the ones who will be in Christ. Those who believe not of their own free will are condemned because they are already condemned due to being in Adam.

Thanks for your response once again. It is not my intention to bore you with the same old questions and answers. I sincerely desire your honest input as always. I do see what you are saying, and I would like to comment upon the scripture you provided using personal experience.

I understand what you are saying, after all I was brought up believing I had a freewill. I held myself and everyone else completely responsible for their actions and all my reasoning followed accordingly. I was absolutely sure a man's will was sovereign. But as I began to have the Holy Spirit correct me, I came to realize just how many times He instructed me contrary to what I would have done otherwise. These were not moments of choice for me, but clear differences in paths I would have not otherwise seen.

One small example, driving in my car and somebody would cut me off. I would get angry and start cursing the other driver. The Holy Spirit however would interrupt my tirade. He would bring to mind times when I myself was forced to cut in front of somebody due to my having to get in the proper lane so as to exit or make a turn or whatever. The Holy Spirit would remind me that that person was just trying to get along in this world just like me and it could not be helped that sometimes we step on others toes. A new spirit of empathy would wash over me as my error and hypocrisy was made clear to me. I would then bless that person on their way. I could have said no, but the Holy Spirit showed me I would be a slave to sin without Him. Consequently He would teach me to be thankful to God for sending Him and I would even beg Him never to leave me, seeing what I would become, because He showed me. It was therefore out of the question to say no since I was begging Him not to leave me.

I see no sovereign will in this scenario but only the Glory of God in His patient grace, dealing with a blind foolish pride. Anyway, the more I was corrected, sometimes many times over and over, the more I began to die and Jesus began to live in me. I came to see that my opposition to Christ was not even me, but Satan ruling in me. The clearer that became, the more control I was able to have over my will. And Satan who was at first on the inside began to be more and more on the outside, while Christ who was at first on the outside began to be more and more on the inside.

So the term freewill is relative. I would say I am now more free than I ever have been, thanks be to God and His Christ. When before the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I would have said I was completely free. That is why semantics are a problem. To what is the free being applied? I want you so much to relate to this. Unfortunately, if you have not had this experience, I would understand why you can't agree with it. Do you understand what I have said here?

[Floatingaxe]

Floating axe, the term freewill is a relative term. When people use it I have a hard time understanding to where they are applying the term free. Free from God, Free from the devil? This that follows is an exchange I had with a friend of mine. I hope this will explain my problems with the term.

Well, now maybe you won't have that trouble anymore.

I see no sovereign will in this scenario but only the Glory of God in His patient grace, dealing with a blind foolish pride. Anyway, the more I was corrected, sometimes many times over and over, the more I began to die and Jesus began to live in me. I came to see that my opposition to Christ was not even me, but Satan ruling in me. The clearer that became, the more control I was able to have over my will. And Satan who was at first on the inside began to be more and more on the outside, while Christ who was at first on the outside began to be more and more on the inside.

So the term freewill is relative. I would say I am now more free than I ever have been, thanks be to God and His Christ. When before the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I would have said I was completely free. That is why semantics are a problem. To what is the free being applied? I want you so much to relate to this. Unfortunately, if you have not had this experience, I would understand why you can't agree with it. Do you understand what I have said here?

This does nothing to disprove the sovereignty of our own God-given free will. It is Holy Spirit's job to move, teach, rebuke and correct us, and it is still our choice to hear Him and adjust our walk accordingly.

What experience of Christ do you think you have had that I have not? As for being free, I am free in Christ, Holy Spirit living in me and stirring within me continually.

Think of the small three-year-old little girl standing on the kitchen counter, arms outstretched to her loving father three feet away, beckoning her to jump! She leaps into her daddy's arms with glee! Why? Because she trusts him. By faith she exercised a split second choice to jump. She was free to not jump, also.

[childeye]

Floating axe, the term freewill is a relative term. When people use it I have a hard time understanding to where they are applying the term free. Free from God, Free from the devil? This that follows is an exchange I had with a friend of mine. I hope this will explain my problems with the term.

Well, now maybe you won't have that trouble anymore.

I see no sovereign will in this scenario but only the Glory of God in His patient grace, dealing with a blind foolish pride. Anyway, the more I was corrected, sometimes many times over and over, the more I began to die and Jesus began to live in me. I came to see that my opposition to Christ was not even me, but Satan ruling in me. The clearer that became, the more control I was able to have over my will. And Satan who was at first on the inside began to be more and more on the outside, while Christ who was at first on the outside began to be more and more on the inside.

So the term freewill is relative. I would say I am now more free than I ever have been, thanks be to God and His Christ. When before the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I would have said I was completely free. That is why semantics are a problem. To what is the free being applied? I want you so much to relate to this. Unfortunately, if you have not had this experience, I would understand why you can't agree with it. Do you understand what I have said here?

This does nothing to disprove the sovereignty of our own God-given free will. It is Holy Spirit's job to move, teach, rebuke and correct us, and it is still our choice to hear Him and adjust our walk accordingly.

What experience of Christ do you think you have had that I have not? As for being free, I am free in Christ, Holy Spirit living in me and stirring within me continually.

Think of the small three-year-old little girl standing on the kitchen counter, arms outstretched to her loving father three feet away, beckoning her to jump! She leaps into her daddy's arms with glee! Why? Because she trusts him. By faith she exercised a split second choice to jump. She was free to not jump, also.

As I told my friend, to say no to the Holy Spirit was to do the devil's will in me. Doing the devil's bidding is not my sovereign will, so do I testify along with Christ, that if the devil is your spiritual Father, his works you will do. So it is my first hand experience of the spiritual change brought about by the Holy Spirit, to be turned from the powers of darkness to the powers of Light. I once believed my will was sovereign just like that man who said to Jesus, "we are in bondage to no one". But God showed me that I am only an abomination without Him. That is my testimony and I won't change it to accomodate an obscure term. Men are servants of darkness if not a servant of Light, hence they don't have freewills lest they know the Truth.

[Floatingaxe]

As I told my friend, to say no to the Holy Spirit was to do the devil's will in me. Doing the devil's bidding is not my sovereign will, so do I testify along with Christ, that if the devil is your spiritual Father, his works you will do. So it is my first hand experience of the spiritual change brought about by the Holy Spirit, to be turned from the powers of darkness to the powers of Light. I once believed my will was sovereign just like that man who said to Jesus, "we are in bondage to no one". But God showed me that I am only an abomination without Him.

Christians say no to Holy Spirit all the time, and most don't even realize it. It is simply the use of our will that God has given us. It blesses Him when we relent to His control, but it is a decision every time we do.

It isn't always Satan's will, but our own. When a Christian makes a habit of doing his own will, rather than God's will in certain things, he is being carnal. Let it be known that there are many things we may do in life under our own will power that are perfectly within our realm to do.

That is my testimony and I won't change it to accomodate an obscure term. Men are servants of darkness if not a servant of Light, hence they don't have freewills lest they know the Truth.

If you think being free to choose Christ or reject Him and His ways is an obscure matter, then you are accommodating some otherworldly, skewed notion. Even those who walk in the light have the exact same free will as those who walk in darkness. The difference is that God delights in our right choices, and in those that please Him and align with His will for our lives.

[Guest]

.... So the term freewill is relative....

What

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 23:16

He

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30

Says

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Revelation 21:5-6

[childeye]

Christians say no to Holy Spirit all the time, and most don't even realize it. It is simply the use of our will that God has given us. It blesses Him when we relent to His control, but it is a decision every time we do.

See Floatingaxe. On one hand you say Christians say no to the Holy Spirit all the time, and most don't even realize it. I don't disagree, but then you say it is a decision everytime when such a decision would not exist if they don't even realize they are saying no to the Holy Spirit. My take would be that if the conscience is seared they cannot even hear the Holy Spirit.

It isn't always Satan's will, but our own. When a Christian makes a habit of doing his own will, rather than God's will in certain things, he is being carnal. Let it be known that there are many things we may do in life under our own will power that are perfectly within our realm to do.

The problem is we all start out carnal and in the habit of doing Satan's will. There is only one direction towards the Light and there is backsliding, but the willpower is really in whether you are putting your trust in God or your own capability. Satan is king over all the children of pride. Of course it is our will, but it is the spirit in the person that motivates the will, whether it is Light or dark. That is the way I see it.

If you think being free to choose Christ or reject Him and His ways is an obscure matter, then you are accommodating some otherworldly, skewed notion. Even those who walk in the light have the exact same free will as those who walk in darkness. The difference is that God delights in our right choices, and in those that please Him and align with His will for our lives.

The notion I am accomodating is grace through faith not freewill. Therefore I don't see the exact same freewill for those who walk in darkness and those who walk in the Light. Those in the Light see where they are going, those in darkness are deceived. Yes, I agree God delights in those choices that bring forth prosperity into our lives, becuase He loves us. Hence Jesus seeks to reveal that those choices that are sin are not what are good for us, and that they are the works of Satan deceiving a man or woman.