Saturday or Sunday

[gdemoss]

Again, Joco, you cannot see your own contradictions. You ask why one has to keep the letter of the other nine but also say that they do not in certain circumstances or conditions. Your the one adding traditions to the scriptures by personal interpretations and then telling me that I will be judged as a sinner who breaks Gods commandments. We disagree. God be judge, a merciful one too.

Gary

[Tyler John]

My point was that it is rarely used in everyday speech, and the problem with using it (and other uncommon expressions) during discussions like this is that we cultivate bad habits. Language that is virtually unique to any particular specialism is jargon, and jargon should always be discouraged! No, I am not 'disputing about words', but about the principles of how we use words that can and do affect people's lives.

Now, I think I am on the subject. The two issues are very much connected, for both have their roots in an unhealthy addiction to past forms - a past form of language and a past form of spiritual requirement. The fact that many believers use the KJV, or any other translation, does not validate it; many believers pray to Mary and saints, but that is no validation of the practice. I am not suggesting that the KJV actually equates with such nonsense, but showing that the argument of mass usage is unhelpful. The issue should be one of quality, not of quantity. Lovely though the KJV may be, it is archaic, much misunderstood (because language has changed over the past 500 years) and less accurate than some more up-to-date translations.

I understand your point and agree for the most part. I would also point out that in most of my posts, I change “ye” to “you”, etc. and delete the “th” endings on words such as “commendeth” to read “commends”. I also do that when I read from the KJV aloud.

Similarly, the 'observance' of a sabbath should be about time, not timekeeping. The rule, like many others, is there to ensure that everyone in ancient Hebrew society had a day of rest and worshipped weekly.

Not just “a day of rest”, but the same day of rest for the entire nation. All were to rest and worship, study and hear the Word read, pray and praise in unison. That has been lost today with each doing what is right in their own sight.

The actual day of the week was not laid down, but arrived at by tradition, and Jesus asks us to worship daily. It is often argued that the commandments are timeless, but they are not; my neighbours have no oxen or donkeys. The usual argument is that we should interpret this in the modern context to mean cars and BBQs, but if we are to reinterpret one, then we must be allowed to do so with others that have an equally temporal context.

Are you saying Israel’s day of rest was arrived at by tradition or are you referring to Christianity today? I believe they are timeless, if not in letter, then certainly in principle. Just because your neighbors don’t have oxen doesn’t take away the timelessness of the commandment. There are people all over the world that have neighbors with animals that may need help on Sabbath, even the dogs that your own neighbors have. One thing that is definitely timeless is that none of Yahweh’s people should work and all should rest. BTW, I don’t apply cars and BBQs into the equation. They are not alive with health or life in danger.

Jesus summed up the commandments in two simple statements - effectively: love Yahweh with your entire being, and love other people in the same way that you love yourself. Love is the key, not adherence to each individual Hebraic law.

How do you show your love for Yahweh and your neighbor? I show it by keeping the Ten Commandments. I know that if I steal from my neighbor, that I don’t really love him. The same holds true for breaking any of the 10 to the detriment of my neighbor.

It is quite clear what Jesus felt about 'working' on the sabbath - it was unimportant whether one did or not so long as love and justice were maintained. Strict adherehce to individual laws cannot be maintained without breaking other laws. The NT writers made this very clear and we should surely all accept that it is by grace, not lawkeeping, i.e. the 'works' to which Paul refers, that we are saved.

I totally agree with your last statement. Salvation is by grace, not law keeping. Yet, salvation by grace leads to doing good works that were prepared beforehand to walk in (Eph 2:8-10).

Your first comment is an assumption. Yeshua taught men to obey the commandments out of love for Yahweh and man. Your second comment about strict adherence is bewildering. What are you referring to?

Are you saying Israel’s day of rest was arrived at by tradition - Yes! No mention of days of the week in Genesis!

I don’t apply cars and BBQs into the equation. They are not alive with health or life in danger - This commandment was about envy

none of Yahweh’s people should work and all should rest - Including Jesus?

salvation by grace leads to doing good works - Confusion of translation; the single word 'works' is used to translate a dozen or so different words from Koine Greek. My fault for generalising. My apologies!

Your first comment is an assumption - No it wasn't! Check out when Jesus replied to the Pharisees who admonished his disciples for working on the sabbath.

Your second comment about strict adherence is bewildering - Ditto. The Pharisees tried to adhere to the Law, but their strict interpretation of some laws led them to break others. Jesus and NT writers made it clear that the Law can only lead to failure.

each doing what is right in their own sight - Are you doing right in your own sight? Yes! We all are! You interpret scriptures one way, I another. Each of us attempts to use our divinely given talents and the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to get it right. Are you right, or am I? I think we may have to agree to differ, but in the knowledge that our love for Jesus is greater than our differences of opinion. I reckopn it's time to end this particular part of the overall discussion - while we still have a few things on which we agree! Great debate - thanks!

[WailingWall]

I believe I have been consistent in all my posts.

Yep consistently in error , consistently in sinful disobedience ,

⁵ Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. ⁶He has made us competent as ministers of a newcovenant—not of the letter

but of the Spirit; for the letter kills,

but the Spirit gives life.

Simple to understand facts

Covenant is Law

Letter of the OT Law Kills

Spirit of NT Law Gives Life

Danielzk, according to the scriptures Jesus did not do away with the law but made the law even greater. He magnified the law to a spiritual level. He made the 10 commandments even harder to keep.

2 COR. 3 [6] WHO ALSO HATH MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLETH, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE. [7] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

ROMANS 7 [6] But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER.

As we can see in above scriptures we are now to walk in the spirit of the law. If we walk only in the letter of the law this will lead to death, but if we walk in the spirit of the law this leads to life.

MATTHEW 5 [20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. [21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, THOU SHALT NOT KILL; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT WHOSOEVER IS ANGRY WITH HIS BROTHER WITHOUT A CAUSE SHALL BE IN DANGER OF THE JUDGMENT: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

OLD LETTER- Thou shalt not kill

NEW SPIRIT- Don’t even get angry. Call no man a fool. Love one another in thought, word and deed.

MATTHEW 5 [27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But i say unto you, that WHOSOEVER LOOKETH ON A WOMAN TO LUST AFTER HER HATH COMMITTED ADULTERY with her already in his heart.

OLD LETTER- Thou shalt not commit adultery

NEW SPIRIT- Do not look on a woman to lust. Keep the law in our mind and spirit. Even in our eyes.

So you can see that Jesus did not do away with the letter of the law. Common sense will tell ya in order to walk in the spirit of the law you must also be walking in the letter. Jesus made the commandments even harder to keep and more honorable.

ISAIAH 42 [20] Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.[21] The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; HE WILL MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honourable.

Yes, Jesus magnified the law. He took the letter of the law (which leads to death) and magnified the law to a spiritual level (which leads to life).

[gdemoss]

Teach me what the truth is.

I would love to. My hope is that God will guide me skillfully to do such in a way that you might be able to understand and receive it, instead of me just causing confusion by words without understanding.

What we need to understand is that we are working with 'law' here in the form of 'commandments'. Laws written in commandments are given not to guide but to expose and condemn those who are lawless. The law giver designs the laws to do his will of conviction and condemnation.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law of God written in commandments was given because of transgression 'until' Jesus should come. The 'until' is very important in this. Until Jesus comes, one cannot understand the law except by the letter as a transgressor of such. But once the spirit of Christ comes crying Abba Father in the heart of a man as teacher, the eyes of the understanding, those opened in the garden of Eden, are finally enlightened by the teacher who resides within the holiest of holies and fills the temple upon request, quickening the mortal flesh to fulfill the righteousness that is in the law by walking in the spirit.

I give my children a law. The younger ones who have no understanding can only understand the letter of the law. The older ones who know me understand the spirit or the why of the law given. Lets say I told my children that they are not to leave the house and go outside while I went to the store. While I was gone to the store the house caught fire. My 10 year old, who cares not for the law anyway, runs outside because he is afraid of the fire. But my 4 year old sits crying in her bedroom, afraid of what I might do if she breaks the letter of my law as she has been spanked previously when doing such with other laws. My 15 year old steps up to the plate and grabs my daughter and carries her to safety outside the home where he spends half an hour trying to reason with my 4 year old why I won't be mad when I get home knowing they broke my laws/commandments. Had I returned to find my 15 year old had barred the doors of the house so that the others would not get out and break my law, I would have been sorrowful at the loss of my children in the fire. Carnality kills. Spirituality gives life.

Considering what I have said, we need to address your questions about the law/commandments in this fashion. Who is the law giver? Why was the law given? When would keeping the carnal letter of the law kill when the spirit of the law would give life since they are contrary to one another (I do not confuse the two as they are one, though you might disagree). The flesh can merely keep the letter of the law and obey that which is given, being kept under bondage afraid of death which is the penalty for breaking the law. The spirit and the letter intersect and look identical in practice in many areas of the law/commandments but in some they differ. This takes spiritual discernment and understanding to be able to do justice and judgment. We must always consider the person of Jesus Christ and the two greatest commandments of the law in order to understand the law or even how to create laws of our own that govern those whom God has made us overseers such as our children.

Where we are going to have the most problems between us is in interpretation of the law/commandments. You hold fast to Saturday being the only day that a person can possibly keep the Sabbath and not be guilty of breaking the law, being in sin and facing judgment. I do not. The problem lies in our understanding of the law and the law giver. And this is our task as we come to believe in God and work to know him. I hear your warning, as you warn that I do not understand his instruction, but I stand in opposition to your image of our Father and am working to follow his instruction to meekly instruct you who have set yourself in opposition to what he has taught me about him. In a best case scenario we are both earnestly desiring to know and love (obey) our Father but are hindered by our lack of understanding. In a worst case scenario we have different fathers. I believe the former to be true.

As for questions like you have posed that I have avoided a direct answer because I felt it unprofitable to do so as I believed it would only stir up strife, I will leave you to answer them for yourself based upon how I responded here, knowing that I will seek to obey the spirit within me, who is the one I trust to interpret his law and guide me into doing that which is truly righteous, even when it flies in the face of the letter of the commandment.

May the Lord bless these words and give us understanding in all things that we might truly be obedient unto him in all things out of love for him because he first loved us. May he continue the work he has begun in each of us and keep us blameless and spotless before him in love.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[gdemoss]

It is an impossibility to obey the spirit of these laws, while breaking the letter.

David did not break the spirit of the command though he broke the letter. The disciples the same. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that your statement here is false.

May we have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying unto us.

If only...Amen.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[gdemoss]

It is an impossibility to obey the spirit of these laws, while breaking the letter.

David did not break the spirit of the command though he broke the letter. The disciples the same. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that your statement here is false.

David did not keep the spirit of that law. He simply broke the letter without guilt because of hunger.

That is the extent of your reply?

Would anyone else care to address the issues I raised in my post to Gary?

Yes, the extent because you believe David broke the spirit of the law and therefore you and I cannot agree. There is no reason to address anything else. Have a great day.

Gary

[RedMomma]

I'm not here to debate but to say thank you all for posting on this very subject! I have been very interested in the customs of messianic jews for some time now,I decided to try it to see if I can actually do the Sabbath.which I found it hard to do but worth it.I dont think its bad to observe it for I pr ayed over it and found I'm glad I did it.I hope to the ones that has hard time over this topic finds peace over it \.The Lord is whats important right? so please pray on it and lets continue this topic ok ty all God bless you Shalom!!

[WailingWall]

Today Christians are not subject to the Ten Commandments as a ten-point code of 'dos' and 'dont's,' rather, the Holy Spirit has been sent into our hearts so that we may walk in faith and obedience at a much deeper level than was possible before.

JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.[16] AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever;[17] Even THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.[21] HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS, AND KEEPETH THEM, HE IT IS THAT LOVETH ME: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM.

In order to receive the Holy Spirit we must first be keeping Gods 10 commandments. The 4th included.

[gdemoss]

In order to receive the Holy Spirit we must first be keeping Gods 10 commandments. The 4th included.

So your declaring that those of us who do not keep the Sabbath according to the letter of the law, do not have the Holy Spirit? Help me understand what your saying.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[WailingWall]

Hi gdemoss

Im just quoting scripture. Just read John 14. Says what it says