AnotherSinner Posted March 22, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 47 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 628 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 94 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/13/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1984 Share Posted March 22, 2012 During participating in some rather intense discussion, a question formed within my mind. It is one too that has not yet been answered. The question I have here is this: How much of the Bible are we actually supposed to follow? So much of the manner in which thought was had in the Old Testament has in essence, changed within the New Testament. By no means, am I meaning to imply that God's word contradicts itself, for no, it does not. Rather it is simply a matter of understanding how certain practices came to change. Such as that of the forgiveness of sin in place of retribution for the practice of sin. I am seeking thoughts here because I hope to understand better how to walk in the faith as well as live it, and not just simply speak it. I pray I can understand the guidance as well as any sciptural reference that is given.... May God Bless You Dani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Hi, Dani - Well, I hope this thread does not degenerate into a debate, but here is my answer anyway. The New Testament did not change the Old Testament. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time answer in-depth as is needed, but in brief - When the Lord called Israel out of Egypt and brought them to Sinai, He had the people purify themselves and present themselves before Him. However, when the people saw the the clouds and thunder they became frightened and asked Moses to go up to God on their behalf rather than for themselves to all go up to God. So instead of the people developing their on-on-one relationship with God then and there, they chose to have Moses be the go-between between them and God. And thus the "Law" was brought forth. Now the Law, or more accurately translated "Instruction", had three components - Judicial rules of governance for the people as a nation, Levitical and Priestly rules (rules for the Tabernacle, sacrifices, Feasts, etc.), and daily conduct rules. So the rules of governance ceased to be applied by default when Israel was no longer a self-governing nation. The rules for the Tabernacle/Temple ceased by default when the Temple was destroyed. The rules for purity, celebrating the Feasts, 10 Commandments, and such could still be followed. In the NT, we see the conflict of Gentiles coming to faith in the Messiah of the Jews without becoming Jews themselves. The Apostles mandated they did not have to become Jews and follow Moses, but they were still given rules of conduct guidelines. In other threads, we have been arguing about whether or not the Believers kept celebrating the Feasts of the Lord or not, honored Sabbath, etc. So I won't delve into this here. Basically, God is still the same God He always was. There are however, different ways He revealed Himself to His people. There is a level of progression through out Scripture, as you can see in reading the OT chronologically. God never stops revealing more and more of Himself to His people, yet we keep trying to put Him in a box, thinking revelations ceased at a particular time in history. They don't. God is living and breathing, not confined to a Book. But Jesus summed up the entire Torah (Law) and Prophets with the commands 'Love God' and "Love your neighbor.' If you read the "Law" with that in mind, you can gain a new appreciation for what God's heart was in the rules and regulations. And then it will be easier to sort "the letter of the law" form "the spirit of the law" in what is written. Following the letter is what leads to dead religiosity. Following the spirit leads you to greater love - where you can learn to apply the principle to your life, using what is written as a guideline to what love might look like in a situation. I hope this rambling of my thoughts makes sense to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSinner Posted March 22, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 47 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 628 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 94 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/13/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1984 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Hi, Dani - Well, I hope this thread does not degenerate into a debate, but here is my answer anyway. The New Testament did not change the Old Testament. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time answer in-depth as is needed, but in brief - When the Lord called Israel out of Egypt and brought them to Sinai, He had the people purify themselves and present themselves before Him. However, when the people saw the the clouds and thunder they became frightened and asked Moses to go up to God on their behalf rather than for themselves to all go up to God. So instead of the people developing their on-on-one relationship with God then and there, they chose to have Moses be the go-between between them and God. And thus the "Law" was brought forth. Now the Law, or more accurately translated "Instruction", had three components - Judicial rules of governance for the people as a nation, Levitical and Priestly rules (rules for the Tabernacle, sacrifices, Feasts, etc.), and daily conduct rules. So the rules of governance ceased to be applied by default when Israel was no longer a self-governing nation. The rules for the Tabernacle/Temple ceased by default when the Temple was destroyed. The rules for purity, celebrating the Feasts, 10 Commandments, and such could still be followed. In the NT, we see the conflict of Gentiles coming to faith in the Messiah of the Jews without becoming Jews themselves. The Apostles mandated they did not have to become Jews and follow Moses, but they were still given rules of conduct guidelines. In other threads, we have been arguing about whether or not the Believers kept celebrating the Feasts of the Lord or not, honored Sabbath, etc. So I won't delve into this here. Basically, God is still the same God He always was. There are however, different ways He revealed Himself to His people. There is a level of progression through out Scripture, as you can see in reading the OT chronologically. God never stops revealing more and more of Himself to His people, yet we keep trying to put Him in a box, thinking revelations ceased at a particular time in history. They don't. God is living and breathing, not confined to a Book. But Jesus summed up the entire Torah (Law) and Prophets with the commands 'Love God' and "Love your neighbor.' If you read the "Law" with that in mind, you can gain a new appreciation for what God's heart was in the rules and regulations. And then it will be easier to sort "the letter of the law" form "the spirit of the law" in what is written. Following the letter is what leads to dead religiosity. Following the spirit leads you to greater love - where you can learn to apply the principle to your life, using what is written as a guideline to what love might look like in a situation. I hope this rambling of my thoughts makes sense to you. It does. Thank you for taking the time to reply Nebula. Have a lot to think about.....do not want to become a zealot, just as I hope not to compromise my faith. Thanks again. May God Bless You Dani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted March 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 22, 2012 I like Neb's answer. For me there is not dividing line between 'old and new' just better. The 'oldness' is the curses, the death penalty that for all faithful do not have over there heads. One of my favorite Messianic writers puts it something like this and I am paraphrasing, 'theres no different parts of the bible no old or new but conditions in which the Torah operated, before, during and after someone comes into faith'. God doesn't change, His instructions to us don't change, what Yah calls everlasting is just that everlasting, forever. Yeshua didnt do away with the Tanakh He expanded it even by adding the absolute heart condition to the mix. It was and always has been about the heart, our will aligning to His, but before Yeshua rose to the throne room not everyone was inpowered with the Holy Spirit as we are today. The Apostolic scriptures, the nt, doesn't do away, replace, the Tanakh but brings the faithful into a place where we can see the entire plan of God's and are able to follow His instructions through the Spirt. We are to follow all things that pertain to us as followers of Yeshua and we are having those very things that He wants us to do being written on our hearts. Yet God does not just instantly download all that but brings us along, teaches us slowly in the ways we can understand. I know I am grateful for that not all of us learn at the same pace. As Nebula said theres debates all over the place about the Sabbath and such things, just read His word, pray for guideance, listen to His voice as He shows you His truth. Not sure if that helped you at all.. shalom, Mizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted March 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Nebula touched on the perfect answer to your question, Dani. The progressive revelation of the righteousness of God over a period of a few thousand years was a process of taking carnal men who can only understand things by the letter and having them become born of spirit so that they might understand spiritual things rather than carnal. A natural confusion takes place for every believer as he /she is brought through the process of the rebirth and subsequent maturing. We are leaving our carnality behind and letter following instincts behind in exchange for spiritual leading and understanding. Lets look at one of the tools Jesus used to teach carnal men spiritual things for understanding. Jesus gird himself with a towel and washed the feet of the disciples. This carnal act spoke to the hearts of the men whom he was teaching spiritual truth to. Peters reaction speaks volumes as he only sees the carnal actions and responds accordingly. After the interaction is finished Jesus goes on to teach the spiritual principle of washing by the water of the Word of God through humility. Jesus did not give them a carnal ordinance to gather together and wash each others feet in a carnal manner by the letter of what he said forever. What he did was taught them how to spiritually care for one another in humility. Paul's statement about being sacrificed on the service of anothers faith is similar in nature. When I wish to teach someone spiritual truth, I have the teaching of the foot washing to consider when choosing my options for teaching methods. By selecting a carnal thing to represent the spiritual truth I wish to teach, I can translate the understanding of the individual from carnal to spiritual. Those who don't get it will simply think they are following Jesus by getting together and literally washing each others feet, even if they are not concerned with the state of sin in the one they are washing. Whether I am choosing to wash the actual feet of the person as the teaching tool or if I humble myself in some other way when giving spiritual truth matters not. The spiritual truth is what is important. There can be no letter to follow and be just, righteous, merciful, gracious etc and employ each as necessary in any given situation. Our desire needs to be to reverse the process that happened in the garden when our 'eyes' were opened and we were confronted with the necessity of making moral judgments such as the issue of nakedness. To not decide for ourselves what to do in any given situation but be so in tune with the spirit of God within that we can seek his judgment and instruction on how to act. To become just like Jesus who of himself could do or say anything but relied solely on the Father to judge all things. The word of God is alive through the Spirit who uses scripture to guide us through any situation. It is in our best interest to learn how to quiet ourselves so that we can receive his instruction. To obey all of the bible literally is impossible because there is a time for equal and opposite things to be done as shown in Eccl. Understanding this is understanding judgment. Nobody can obey all of the bible and the bible specifically teaches this with the priest profaning the temple, children being circumcised on the Sabbath etc. The truth of it can be summed up in saying that we are to follow the truth contained in the scripture as led by the Holy Spirit either within us or our leadership that are given to Shepard us in the flock. In Christ, your brother, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemke Posted March 22, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,028 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 451 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/24/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 22, 2012 Great answers, I Corinthians 10 is one place that gives some incite on how to handle the OT. Their experiences are our experiences, shadows of what we now experience in Christ. These things are written for our learning and as a warning. In Jude vs, 10 he writes "they have gone the way of Cain. Jude is warning about people that have gotten into the church and as a type he points to Cain. In short what did Cain do? He wanted to worship the way "he" wanted to worship and when he was corrected he got angry and took it out on who? Righteous Able. You can say Able was the first martyr in scripture. Same thing today, when you tell someone Jesus is the only way of salvation, you ain't so popular and a calm rational person can get angry in an instant. There are people in the church today believing salvation can come by other means. Just as Jude warned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSinner Posted March 22, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 47 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 628 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 94 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/13/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1984 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 I am sorry I ask so much patience from all of you.... This topic is real hard for me. As I do feel that a great deal of the bible should be considered. A lot more of it, in fact than is in this present day and age. I am no saint, and have struggles with keeping things as simple as the ten commandments....cannot lie to anyone there. I struggle about as much, if not, more so than the next person. Just it is hard for me to grasp... I know that concepts like an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth have passed away with the coming of Jesus Christ and His lessons of love and forgiveness. It is other things like our roles as God's servants, forgiveness, and sin itself that tend to get me confused. Because Jesus forgives us, is it okay if we sin? If not, why do so many of us use that excuse? My apologies once again, I am just at a loss.... May God Bless You Dani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted March 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 22, 2012 I am sorry I ask so much patience from all of you.... This topic is real hard for me. As I do feel that a great deal of the bible should be considered. A lot more of it, in fact than is in this present day and age. I am no saint, and have struggles with keeping things as simple as the ten commandments....cannot lie to anyone there. I struggle about as much, if not, more so than the next person. Just it is hard for me to grasp... I know that concepts like an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth have passed away with the coming of Jesus Christ and His lessons of love and forgiveness. It is other things like our roles as God's servants, forgiveness, and sin itself that tend to get me confused. Because Jesus forgives us, is it okay if we sin? If not, why do so many of us use that excuse? My apologies once again, I am just at a loss.... May God Bless You Dani As we know sin is the transgression of the law, death is the penalty for breaking the law. But Yeshua, Jesus, took that penalty and if we are indeed His, if we have accepted His rule in our hearts when we do fall and sin He is quick to forgive and forget when we confess our transgressions to Him. We never will be left in the darkness again when we have Him as our Savior and King. People use all kinds of things as excuses to do what they want, some even think that because we have been born of Him we do not sin, hogwash! we are still this side of the return and still in our flesh and will sin even if unintentionally. What is not ok with God is say 'I can do this or that, sin, and then go to God and He will forgive me' kinda thinking. No apologies needed Dani, we are all on the same path just in different places but we are all heading in the same direction. shalom, Mizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 22, 2012 We are responsible to follow what the Lord has revealed to us. New believers are responsible for the little revelation they have been given and more mature believers are responsible for the greater revelation they have been given. God doesn't place such great burdens on us to know all things at once. He is a patient, loving , gentle God who walks with us, gently leading us by His word into greater and greater revelation of Himself. We are called to diligently study, to know the scriptures, and to devote time spent with God and talking with Him, and to obey Him when He opens up something to us. Don't rush ahead of yourself and get caught up with the mysteries and the unknowns. He loves you right where you are and desires to take you further at His pace set for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 When the law of Moses was first written, it had three types of laws. Some were moral laws, and they were to continue forever, because they reflect God's standard of holiness. Some were laws that showed Israel to be a separate people from the idolatrous nations around them, and they included things like abstaining from certain foods and not mixing diverse materials in a single garment. The separation ended when the gospel was brought to the gentile nations, and that which was originally common was made clean by God. The third type of laws pertained to the office of the Levitical Priesthood, and they were only to continue till the cross. Where there seems to be a change in the law, like where Jesus would say, "it has been said," only to turn around and give us the truth, no real change was taking place with God. He was clearing up false teaching by the Pharisees and Saducees who had misinterpreted scripture. Jesus knew the mind of God, since Jesus is God. The laws we need to be concerned with are those that deal with God's standard of holy living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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