Predestination

[eandkandf]

Hi - I was talking with Shanzy and Michael D. yesterday trying to explain how God can predestine things and still grant us free-will. After thinking about it I have this:

(Eph 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

(Eph 1:4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

(Eph 1:5) he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

(Rom 8:29) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

(Rom 8:30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

From these verses we can see that God definitely predestined who was to be called to Christ....

(Acts 4:27) for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

(Acts 4:28) to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

And from these verses it seems like God predestined a lot of general actions to take place apart from people being called to salvation...

(Eph 1:11) In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

and from this verse we can see that God works ALL things according to the counsel of his will, but does that mean He predestined all things?

And we all know(pretty sure but don't have any scripture right now) that God has given us free will to make conscious decisions(about most importantly to choose to serve Him).

So I explained to my Mom tonight that man abuses his free will to commit evil acts and that explains why evil things happen in the World.

So my question is this: Did God predestine all things that happen or just things that dealt with Jesus when He was incarnate and things that deal with people being called to the Lord? What all did God predestine? Any scripture to provide illumination on this topic would be greatly appreciated! God Bless and thank you in advance for your participation on this topic...

Edited April 2, 2012 by sderic

[godrulz]

This is a classic theological question debated for centuries (sovereignty, free will, decretalism, problem of evil, election, etc.). The main views of providence are Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, and Open Theism. After decades of study, I believe the idea of two motifs in Scripture (take all passages at face value) with some of the future is predestined (e.g. first/second coming of Christ, corporate vs individual election of the church...the verses you quoted as individual..., etc.), while other aspects are partially open, unsettled, contingent (avoiding the problem of making an omnicausal God responsible for evil contrary to an omnicompetent God's holiness).

God macro vs micromanages, is providentially in control without being all or tightly controlling (at the expense of love, freedom, relationship, moral responsibility).

www.opentheism.info (read intro page and see if that does not resonate with reality).

You are likely sorta Calvinistic. I would suggest that their view of predestination is not how God has chosen to govern. Election is corporate, in Christ, conditional, not individual, by decree, unconditional.

I would not be dogmatic until one understands the strengths and weaknesses of the major views.

Deterministic predestination is not compatible with libertarian free will (compatibilism is not true free will, but still deterministic). Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is compatible with exhaustive predestination, but not with libertarian free will. Molinism's 'middle knowledge' is essentially deterministic and philosophically convoluted. Arminian simple foreknowledge depends on 'eternal now', a wrong view of time/eternity (vs endless time). One cannot explain its mechanism, so it begs the question.

[Guest Butero]

This is a very tough thing to explain, because we are Predestined, yet we do have free will. Paul was a chosen vessel, and as such, God stopped him in his tracks to reveal Christ to him. He didn't do that for Gamileo or the many other deceived Pharisees of Paul's day. Even so, Paul still had to act upon that knowledge, and choose to follow Jesus. God created Paul to be his Apostle, but Paul had to freely become a bondslave to Jesus and follow him.

You can read through scripture, and see how God has already told us how future events will go down. That means he created certain people to fill certain rolls in getting us there. At the same time, they still choose to do those things. Like Jeremiah, he knew us before he created us in the womb, yet for better or worse, good or bad, he made us the way we are. We do choose what we do, but if we were created with full foreknowledge of how we would behave, is that truly free will?

[~candice~]

This is a classic theological question debated for centuries (sovereignty, free will, decretalism, problem of evil, election, etc.). The main views of providence are Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, and Open Theism. After decades of study, I believe the idea of two motifs in Scripture (take all passages at face value) with some of the future is predestined (e.g. first/second coming of Christ, corporate vs individual election of the church...the verses you quoted as individual..., etc.), while other aspects are partially open, unsettled, contingent (avoiding the problem of making an omnicausal God responsible for evil contrary to an omnicompetent God's holiness).

God macro vs micromanages, is providentially in control without being all or tightly controlling (at the expense of love, freedom, relationship, moral responsibility).

www.opentheism.info (read intro page and see if that does not resonate with reality).

You are likely sorta Calvinistic. I would suggest that their view of predestination is not how God has chosen to govern. Election is corporate, in Christ, conditional, not individual, by decree, unconditional.

I would not be dogmatic until one understands the strengths and weaknesses of the major views.

Deterministic predestination is not compatible with libertarian free will (compatibilism is not true free will, but still deterministic). Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is compatible with exhaustive predestination, but not with libertarian free will. Molinism's 'middle knowledge' is essentially deterministic and philosophically convoluted. Arminian simple foreknowledge depends on 'eternal now', a wrong view of time/eternity (vs endless time). One cannot explain its mechanism, so it begs the question.

Are you an open theist? I really don't see how open theism could be realistic at all, from the position of God answering prayers, God giving prophesy with full assurance, and with God having foreknowledge of our sin enough to send Jesus to die for these sins before they would happen. You can drive a bus through the holes in OT.

I do however agree with you about corporate election and predestination. God has predestined the church body, not the individual, to salvation. IMHO.

[OneLight]

I keep it as simple as possible. God, being Omnipresence, looks down through time and knows who will accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing who will, He predestines them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

All these titles just confuse me ...

[OneLight]

foreknowledge does not mean looking down through time seeing in advance what is going to happen (Ac 4:28)

I like to discuss one issue at a time. The verse you gave is taken out of context if you are trying to show the above statement.

Acts 4:27-30

“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Foreknowledge is exactly that it says, knowing something before it happens. In the case of how it is used in scripture, Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.", it means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge?

[Fez]

foreknowledge does not mean looking down through time seeing in advance what is going to happen (Ac 4:28)

I like to discuss one issue at a time. The verse you gave is taken out of context if you are trying to show the above statement.

Acts 4:27-30

“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Foreknowledge is exactly that it says, knowing something before it happens. In the case of how it is used in scripture, Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.", it means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge?

One of the most sticky subjects in all Christendom! But this explanation comes close to explaining what I understand of predestination as well.

[Zemke]

I've always liked the statement " Predestination and free will are two sides of the same coin, We may not be able to reconcile them but we cannot separate them either."

I believe this is one of those areas, like many, that needs what Paul prays for in Phillipians 1:9 "real knowledge" experientual knowledge, not just a head knowledge but a working out and growing understanding of knowledge as we serve in His calling.

[saved34]

I think Dr. Spiros Zhodiates said it best in his greek Word study:

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Predestination is corporate, but it has to be individual as well. Our God knows how many hairs are on our heads. He directly deals with each and every individual human being. Predestination is NEVER ever linked to the fate of unbelievers. I think it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture to place Predestination upon unbelievers in the sense that God predetermined them to the Lake of Fire. God said there will come a time when he will send unbelievers a strong delusion because they absolutely would not receive the truth. In other words, the offer for Life was right in front of them, and they themselves rejected of their own accords.

2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

[OneLight]

foreknowledge does not mean looking down through time seeing in advance what is going to happen (Ac 4:28)

I like to discuss one issue at a time. The verse you gave is taken out of context if you are trying to show the above statement.

Acts 4:27-30

“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Foreknowledge is exactly that it says, knowing something before it happens. In the case of how it is used in scripture, Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.", it means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge?

Sure, but mine is pretty straightforward and simple.

The operative phrase is in blue above.

determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conslusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain

God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen.

And to what God determines there is no altering.

I believe my explanation is straightforward also. What you say does not disprove that He foreknew what was going to happen. Scripture does not contradict scripture, but builds it up. It is our understanding of scripture that may be in error.

When it is written that God foreknew, He foreknew. Foreknew is self explanatory. I believe you agree that He is Omnipresent, moving through time without end. Since He is not constrained by time, why do you find it hard to see that He was able to look down through time and know what choices we make and determine how to proceed accordingly?

To better understand your position, I have a couple more questions for you, if you don't mind answering.

1. Do you believe God gave us freewill or do you believe otherwise?
2. If you believe otherwise, how do you believe?