Predestination

[OneLight]

I believe my explanation is straightforward also. What you say does not disprove that He foreknew what was going to happen. Scripture does not contradict scripture, but builds it up. It is our understanding of scripture that may be in error.

When it is written that God foreknew, He foreknew. Foreknew is self explanatory. I believe you agree that He is Omnipresent, moving through time without end. Since He is not constrained by time, why do you find it hard to see that He was able to look down through time and know what choices we make and determine how to proceed accordingly?

To better understand your position, I have a couple more questions for you, if you don't mind answering.

1. Do you believe God gave us freewill or do you believe otherwise?
   
2. If you believe otherwise, how do you believe?

Okay, I'll give it a shot, even though we haven't given me the meaning of "what your purpose determined before to be done".

Thank you.

I thought my statement "Yes, God determined what would be the answer to their prayers." covered the idea that He determines everything before it is done, but I guess I did not word it well enough. I used the word prayer because that is what the scripture was talking about, their prayer to God.

You ask what I believe. I believe the Bible, and I take what I believe from the whole Bible.

So I will establish what I believe with the Scriptures from which it is taken.

But I will not be presenting the verses themselves, because they cover too much of the Bible to make it practical to do so.

I will be giving only their "addresses" to make evident how often the Bible repeats such, and that you may check out for yourself what is stated there.

And let me add, I take the Bible at its word. I do not disallow anything it plainly, clearly and specifically states.

Mind if I address these statements? I have no doubt that you believe the bible, as does anyone who is His child. I appreciate that in all who I discuss scripture with. Yet, the way you word it indicates that if I do not agree with your understanding, then either do not ganner my understanding from the whole bible or disallow parts. This form of communication is not needed. We all gain wisdom and understanding through the teaching of His Spirit through His word. No need to set up walls of disagreement before you start.

(This I think is our major difference in approaching Scripture.)

So to begin.

I believe the Bible does not teach the "free will" of man. And here's why.

Free will is a philosophical notion (Aristotle, Cicero) asserted by Pelagius, a British monk around 400 A.D., on the assumption that the responsibility of man requires that man have a free will. Biblicalically, this is not so.

Did not Adam and Eve eat of the fruit on their own free will? Did you not type these words on this page on your own free will? Sweep your hands above your head and see if there are any strings attached. There are none.

Free will is mentioned many times in scripture. After establishing free will, the concept is spoken all through scripture. We freely accept His salvation. We freely accept His gifts. We freely accept His love. We freely accept His Spirit. We are not forced into accepting any of these, we accept them according to our own free will.

I will respect you enough to post the scripture I refer to.

Exodus 35:29

The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done.

Leviticus 1:3

‘If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD.

Leviticus 19:5

‘And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD, you shall offer it of your own free will.

Leviticus 22:19

you shall offer of your own free will a male without blemish from the cattle, from the sheep, or from the goats.

Leviticus 22:29

And when you offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the LORD, offer it of your own free will.

The Bible teaches that man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34; Ro 3:19; Gal 3:22),

that it is only those whom the Son makes free that are free (Jn 8:36, cf Jn 8:32; Ro 6:18, 22, 8:12; Gal 5:1).

I agree

Free will (self-power) was lost in the fall when man's nature became corrupted, enslaving him to sin so that he cannot do the good (Ro 7:18-19, 8:7).

Free will (self-power) means the freedom (power) to do the good; i.e., obey God (Mk 12:29-31).

Man no longer has that power (Jn 15:5; Ro 5:6, 7:18), which is the meaning of the depravity of man.

Ah, now we come to the issue. You see free will as "self power". I see free will is having the ability to freely choose. It is the readiness to choose that we all have. I have researched freewill and nowhere did I find "self power" assigned to to freewill. Some will say it is without influence, but that is not possible because nobody is without influence. In order for that to be true, a person would have to be completely alone in life, having nothing to influence them, a sole spirit without creation, which is impossible, so such a meaning is also impossible. Also, scripture would not use the term freewill if freewill was not free.

What unregenerate man has is free agency, the freedom to do what he wishes or desires, to act voluntarily according to his disposition.

I thought you were using scripture? Scripture does not use the term free agency. This is a man made idea derived from the rejection that man has freewill as scripture states he does.

But with his unregenerate (fallen) nature, his dispositon is toward evil; i.e., self-interest in preference to God (Mk 12:29-30; Ro 1:21, 3:10-12, 23).

The difference between free will and free agency is not just semantics, it's the difference between being able to obey God (Ro 8:8)

and not being able to obey God (Ro 8:7).

The regenerate man can obey God, not because of self-power (free will), but because of the power of the Holy Spirit who transforms his disposition.

I disagree. Free agent is not scriptural. Freewill is. Through psychoanalysis man has come up with a definition that better fits his belief, free agent, disregarding scripture in favor of his belief.

I fail to see how you derive to your conclusion that we, through our freewill , cannot seek to obey God. We freely give of ourselves to Him; we freely turn from ourselves and follow Christ.

So there is no Biblical contradiction between the absolute sovereignty of God and the free will of man,

because the Bible does not teach that man has free will (Ro 3:9-12, 23, 6:6, 17-22, 7:14, 24-25, 8:7).

Yet, I have provided you with scripture to the contrary. Do you disagree that the bible has the term freewill in it? If the term is there, then it teaches us that we, through our own freewill, do things.

Unregenerate mankind is only a free agent, choosing voluntarily according to his disposition, which is corrupt and evil (Ge 6:5, 8:21; Jer 17:9;

Mt 7:11; Jn 1:5, 3:19).

God exercises his sovereignty over men, not by compelling their acts or wills contrary to their preferences or dispositions (which would be an overriding of their free agency), but by operating through their dispositions (Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21; Dt 2:25-30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; Ezr 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12, 7:5; Ps 105:25, 106:46; Pr 21:1; Eze 36:27; Dan 1:9; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17) to which their wills freely respond.

So there is no Biblical contradiction between the sovereignty of God (in blue above) and the free agency of man,

because man still acts voluntarily according to his wishes and desires, he still voluntarily chooses to do what he prefers,

which is the meaning of free agency (and what many think is the meaning of free will).

Now if you are in disagreement with what I believe, then I need you to address the Scriptures which are the basis of my belief.

My belief is based in Scripture; and it is only Scripture, not the logic or reasoning of man, that can change my belief.

You gave a full range of scripture without giving scripture. You have chosen to disregard my request to consider my time constraints, so I will disregard your attempt to be my school teacher, assigning me my homework. This is the disrespect I see and I will not bow to it. If you wanted me to fully understand what you are saying, and if each reference meant a better understanding, you would take the time to post it.

I have replied to what I see as your misunderstanding of what freewill is. You said you only use scripture, but have found it impossible to provide substance for your belief by using scripture only. I have not found in your "words" any proof that freewill does not exist. In fact, I have provided just the opposite by bring in scripture that speaks of freewill.

We have a freewill, though it is influenced by everything that is around us, which does not mean our will is no longer freewill. We can freely accept or reject, do or not do. By imply that freewill did not exist after the fall would require you to neglect the scripture that clearly states that we do act according to our freewill. The term "free agent" is not found within scripture. You fail to provide evidence in scripture to convince me that we do not have a freewill.

[enoob57]

In all your effort to bind or make bound the eternal effort- this verse alone unbinds all you have built

Rev 3:20-21

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

NKJV

There 'IS' the One Who Stands Without Knocking... there 'IS' the one who has ears and can open their door...

both the One Knocking and the one opening the door together receive eternal benefit in unity....

the unsettling aspects of the Infinite Nature of Our Lord 'IS' that He alone 'IS' the experience of such and we always as that Which He has began In Him the witnesses eternally of such... so that we upon it's further produce find His Word to be 'The Presence (both in Body and Spirit)' of that of which we come to, yet He remains unbound to the every place of yet we have not been taken to In Him... so shall we ever be with Him in this infinite and intimate resolve of continuance In Him...

1 John 3:2-3

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

NKJV

It 'IS' God Who 'IS' Speaking from the place we have not yet come to... so that we may know now, where we are, we have not the ability to understand or project the workings of how we get to that which we do not know but as children we say Lord Your Spirit within Knows and we are to remain in the constant need of Him to take us-> transform us into that which 'IS' beautiful to His Son! In that beauty lies the purity of His Judgment of us and not that of our own

2 Tim 4:8

8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

NKJV

To know the Intimacy planned in the Marriage of us all into the Beloved Husband, The Christ, will be that of chosen in the agreement of choice into eternity with His pleasure that of my pleasure in Holiness...

Love, Steven

[mizzdy]

Isn't free will all about choice? our ability to choose right or wrong, Yahweh or death? We gain freewill after the fall, Adam made a choice, we all make choices, choices are freewill. When we allow our will to be aligned with His isnt that freewill? isnt that our choice? When we continue to allow Yahweh to refine us are we still making a choice? We can either choose to act upon our own desires or the desires of Yah, how is that not freewill?

[OneLight]

I don't know how to cut and paste a series of Scriptures. I wouldn't type all those numbers if I did.

Then I honor the effort you put forth and understand why you refuse to post scripture. Allow me to assist in this. Below I am posting a link to John 3:16. After opening the link, using your left mouse button, click the beginning of the verse, holding down your mouse button while dragging it to the end of the verse, you will highlight the verse. Let go of the mouse button and the highlight will remain. It will show up as blue in color. You can then right-click the blue highlighted words and choose copy from the drop down menu. You can then go to the post that you are creating, left click where you want the verse to go, and then right click, choosing paste. The verse will appear.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:16&version=NKJV

This may take a few times to get use to the process, but it sure would save you a lot of time typing and bring far more understanding to posts then just referencing scripture for others to look up.

In our discussion of foreknowledge, you won't give me the meaning of the Scripture you presented, "what your purpose determined before to be done" without introducing the topic of free will into the discussion.

Although I prefer to complete the discussion on the topic of foreknowledge before moving to another topic, I will nevertheless address your question on the topic of free will.

I addressed this in the most recent post I replied in. Since this is almost an exact copy of what I just replied to, I will choose to wait for your reply to my post and will not repeat myself in this post.

[OneLight]

Isn't free will all about choice? our ability to choose right or wrong, Yahweh or death? We gain freewill after the fall, Adam made a choice, we all make choices, choices are freewill. When we allow our will to be aligned with His isnt that freewill? isnt that our choice? When we continue to allow Yahweh to refine us are we still making a choice? We can either choose to act upon our own desires or the desires of Yah, how is that not freewill?

Yes, it is. The replacement of freewill by free agent is an attempt to remove freewill from scripture. We do find freewill in scripture. The attempt to replace freewill is done because of a misunderstanding of the word. Some believe that we cannot have a freewill since we are influenced by outside influences. Yet, in order to not be influenced, our spirit would have to be the only thing in existence, making this an impossible definition, since we have always had creation. They improperly assign this meaning to freewill and desire to replace it with terms such as free agent.

[enoob57]

Isn't free will all about choice? our ability to choose right or wrong, Yahweh or death? We gain freewill after the fall, Adam made a choice, we all make choices, choices are freewill. When we allow our will to be aligned with His isnt that freewill? isnt that our choice? When we continue to allow Yahweh to refine us are we still making a choice? We can either choose to act upon our own desires or the desires of Yah, how is that not freewill?

Yes, it is. The replacement of freewill by free agent is an attempt to remove freewill from scripture. We do find freewill in scripture. The attempt to replace freewill is done because of a misunderstanding of the word. Some believe that we cannot have a freewill since we are influenced by outside influences. Yet, in order to not be influenced, our spirit would have to be the only thing in existence, making this an impossible definition, since we have always had creation. They improperly assign this meaning to freewill and desire to replace it with terms such as free agent.

I might add to this is that Scripture says no one can choose based on their fallen state... which I understand that all who hear can only respond by a self centered nature of escape from suffering. However this is in response to God's Word of judgment based on belief of what He Says and that He 'IS' - here I believe the miracle occurs In Christ that God hears through The Son our sinful request by choice In Him for this escape but are regenerated to the selfless nature of New Birth! This is what I think gets the choice-less people started??? Love, Steven

[saved34]

Isn't free will all about choice? our ability to choose right or wrong, Yahweh or death? We gain freewill after the fall, Adam made a choice, we all make choices, choices are freewill. When we allow our will to be aligned with His isnt that freewill? isnt that our choice? When we continue to allow Yahweh to refine us are we still making a choice? We can either choose to act upon our own desires or the desires of Yah, how is that not freewill?

Yes, it is. The replacement of freewill by free agent is an attempt to remove freewill from scripture. We do find freewill in scripture. The attempt to replace freewill is done because of a misunderstanding of the word. Some believe that we cannot have a freewill since we are influenced by outside influences. Yet, in order to not be influenced, our spirit would have to be the only thing in existence, making this an impossible definition, since we have always had creation. They improperly assign this meaning to freewill and desire to replace it with terms such as free agent.

I might add to this is that Scripture says no one can choose based on their fallen state... which I understand that all who hear can only respond by a self centered nature of escape from suffering. However this is in response to God's Word of judgment based on belief of what He Says and that He 'IS' - here I believe the miracle occurs In Christ that God hears through The Son our sinful request by choice In Him for this escape but are regenerated to the selfless nature of New Birth! This is what I think gets the choice-less people started??? Love, Steven

I'm not understanding your stance on the issue, E. What is your stance on the topic? You believe Predestination is in connection to unbelievers? God picks some to Glory, and selects others to the Lake of Fire? Are you a Calvinist? lol I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I'm failing to grasp what you are trying to say.

[OneLight]

Isn't free will all about choice? our ability to choose right or wrong, Yahweh or death? We gain freewill after the fall, Adam made a choice, we all make choices, choices are freewill. When we allow our will to be aligned with His isnt that freewill? isnt that our choice? When we continue to allow Yahweh to refine us are we still making a choice? We can either choose to act upon our own desires or the desires of Yah, how is that not freewill?

Yes, it is. The replacement of freewill by free agent is an attempt to remove freewill from scripture. We do find freewill in scripture. The attempt to replace freewill is done because of a misunderstanding of the word. Some believe that we cannot have a freewill since we are influenced by outside influences. Yet, in order to not be influenced, our spirit would have to be the only thing in existence, making this an impossible definition, since we have always had creation. They improperly assign this meaning to freewill and desire to replace it with terms such as free agent.

I might add to this is that Scripture says no one can choose based on their fallen state... which I understand that all who hear can only respond by a self centered nature of escape from suffering. However this is in response to God's Word of judgment based on belief of what He Says and that He 'IS' - here I believe the miracle occurs In Christ that God hears through The Son our sinful request by choice In Him for this escape but are regenerated to the selfless nature of New Birth! This is what I think gets the choice-less people started??? Love, Steven

I am sorry brother, but I find it hard following what you wrote. Can you define it differently and provide scripture? I would very much appreciate it and am very interested in what you are trying to convey here.

[Reformed-cross]

Hello all:

Well if any of you need a business card that describes what 'kind' of Christian I am so that I can be grouped.....

I am a......5 point card carrying Calvinist. I suppose 7 point if you need exacting definitions.

Predestination in the scriptures has to do with the Election of God. It is the choice of God to 'destine' a person to be 'in Christ' thereby giving that believer the name "Elect", "Chosen", "Called",

"beloved" and much more.

Predestination is not only 'being conformed to his image' which is sanctification. Predestination has to do with Gods whole plan for the individual. The Church does not have corporate election in the same sense that Israel did.

Please allow me to present bits of this text as my foundation to why I believe in Predestination and why its biblical, normative and should be believed and taught.

Rom 8:27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Now, before I get into this,

1. You dont need to quote the whole post as ONelight mentioned in another thread

2. I dont have any rocks or mud to throw at non-calvinists, I dont have anathemas and judgments for those who disagree with me.

3. Because I dont have rocks doesnt meant Im not thoroughly convinced of what I say and I expect my dissenters to think about what Im saying

4. I believe my dissenters want me to think about what theyre saying as well and I am saying right now. I will listen to you.

5. There are outstanding resources online that can explain what I say probably much better and much more scholarly. I refer to John Piper, Mark Driscol, Michael Horton and many others.

6. If you want really thorough treatment of any reformed topic look into REFORMED DOGMATICS by Herman Bavinck, The CHRISTIAN FAITH by Michael Horton

7. If you need a website to look over reformed teaching.... http://www.monergism.com/

Now that should help you, if I seem to misrepresent reformed theology, or if I dont make my self clear...or if you just want to read for your edification some great teaching.

Lastly. my only pet peeve....Dont tell me that "I dont read other men-teachings" I only read the bible. Really, then if you do, refrain from posting so the rest of us wont have to read your-mans-teaching

and you wont be a hypocrite.

The end of this post. Ill take up the Romans text on the next post.

R.E.

[godrulz]

"Predestination is corporate."

What does that mean?

Israel and the Church were predestined/elected to be the people of God. Those who freely receive His grace are added to the group individually. The individual is not arbitrarily decreed to be in the group from eternity past, no choice of their own. Calvinists proof text these corporate verses and try to apply them to individuals (decretal) to support TULIP. The biblical mindset was highly corporate, while modern North Americans are very individualistic.

Regarding your statement, "There is no theodicy without free will,"

are you ever going to address my question: Mankind is morally responsible for the sin of Adam (Ro 5:12-21). Where's the free will in that?

Ezekiel says that the soul that sins will die. Individual sin can affect the group. You are assuming Augustinian Federal Headship THEORIES. I am not responsible for Hitler's sin. I am not to blame for Adam's sin. Sin involves personal responsibility even if my sin affects others negatively. Rom. 5 shows that Adam's sin was the occasion of sin entering the race and physical depravity affecting us/creation. It was not the cause of me sinning or becoming a sinner (using this logic from Rom. 5 would lead to universalism because Jesus died for all, yet all are not saved). This should not be confused with moral depravity that is personal, volitional. Rom. 5 is subject to interpretation and should be considered in light of Rom. 1-3, an extended harmartiological (doctrine of sin) passage. Rom. 5 is about justification. Physical depravity like death is not a free will issue. Moral depravity and spiritual separation from God is a free will issue. We are not culpable because we are conceived, but because we follow in Adam's footsteps (Rom. 5 talks about Adam's sin, but then says....because all have sinned).