Predestination

[Reformed-cross]

Rom 8:27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Paul writing to the Romans spelled out wonderful and powerful truths in these words.

Paul is here speaking of God's election.

What do we see? That the Spirit makes intercession for the believer, not just believer but "saints". The God whom we serve is able to make all things work together for good to those who are

"called according to his purpose". See, not just called but called according to a purpose that God himself has for that person.

Now Paul breaks open that statement by explaining this

Those whom he foreknew he predestined to be conformed, meaning God determined just how he would conform and to what image the saint, the called, the believer would be conformed into.

Its the image of his Son Jesus Christ. Those who are 'in Christ' are to be conformed into his likeness, his image. In order that....he might be the firstborn among many slaves..no..sinners, no brother yes.

Paul further explains what this conforming means.

To be predestined for conformity to Christ God calls them, to be confromed to Christ God justifies them, to be conformed to Christ God will eventually glorify them.

So after hearing that the salvation I have received is not simply the 'responsiibility of human will' it is the divine plan of God to call individuals for his own purposes.

Here we find something so powerful so far-reaching that Paul exclaims "If God be for us who can be against us"?

I draw from this text that conformity to Christ has its root in the Gods choice of the individual. God choice results in God's calling the individual, Gods sanctifying that individual, Gods justifying that individual and Gods eventual glorifying that individual.

Taken with this text..Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

The choice of God results in placing us into Christ and as Paul said in Romans 8 God's choice results in conformity (holy and blameless vs 4).

Paul said in Romans 8:29 "those whom he foreknew"..is equal to " In love he predestined us for adoption" vs 5.

Peter jumps into this with his own way of saying it.

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Election is 'made sure' by what? conformity. Conformity is not justification, its not saving you, its proving that the seed within you is God's, the calling you have is God's, the justification you have is God's. and the Final glorification will be "a bride that has made herself ready".

The scripture has no qualms about laying diligence and divine election side by side. It doesnt isolate the necessity for holiness from the divine plan to glorify His people.

What we all must understand is that Divine Election walks hand in hand with Divine sanctification. God purposes to save, God purposes to make holy and blameless. Both of these are the work of God.

What also must be understood is that sancfication is the mark of salvation not the means of salvation. Predestination is the beautiful plan of God, that when I put faith in Gods predestination for me, I am free to live without fear that I wont fail to be conformed. I am free to love, endure hardship and trials, even death.. We are more than conquerors, because of him who loved us.

This is where I shout AMEN. He loved us, therefore I rejoice. I rejoice that the plan of God has been to bring me into Christ so that I might receive every spiritual blessing from 'heavenly places'.

I rejoice that all things, even my failures will work together for my good. I rejoice that I am the elect, not because I was so wise, so noble, so powerful, but because God foreknew me, and because he foreknew me I will not hear the words "I never knew you" Matt 7:23.

Predestination aids my faith because it reveals the plan of my salvation is not my own, therefore cannot be successful unless God is the finisher of my faith as well as its author.

Predestination aids my faith because it reveals that God plans to get sins out of my life, my weaknesses and terrible short-comings are no hinderance to him.

Predesintation aids my faith because it reveals that God will eventually glorify me and glorify himself through me by saving and perfecting me.

Predestination aids my faith because through whatever trials and hardships occur, nothing will separate me from the love of God, that love didnt originate from my heart, it originated in Gods before the foundation of the world and is now abiding and maintaining my faith.

Predestination is the foundation for the doctrine of perseverance. Its the foundation for courage and endurance in hardships and trial. Its the divine counsel of God that is not up for scrutiny. Predestination also mean that others are not predestinated. Some are going to die in their sins.

I realize that to some, God cannot have a choice. In the minds of some, to give God the 'choice' means that their standard of fairness would be broken by God. But, the biblical truth teaches us that God is the one that choses first, then when we are called we respond. Christ is the author of our faith, we do not author our faith, nor our repentance.

This is also where it gets muddy because the world teaches that sinners have free-will, but they dont, they are in bondage to sin and will not chose God.

The post is long enough. This will suffice for now.

R.E.

[enoob57]

The reason Calvinist choose the fact of no choice is the Scripture

Rom 3:10-18

10 As it is written:

"There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands;

There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside;

They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit";

"The poison of asps is under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."

15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;

17 And the way of peace they have not known."

18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

NKJV

certainly choosing God is impossible according to them by the above! Here the Calvinist says Election is doing

what man cannot for Himself (God randomly choosing without respect of person) and in so doing they give power to

sin to change the image of God to that of robotics. Hence the defense above in my previous post

Rom 5:8-10

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.9 Much more then,

being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we

were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

KJV

Here I perceive is where all the redeemed have passed in their sinful state to redeemed state- when I was self centered

by sin I heard that I needed Jesus to save me from His wrath being hell... as I grew in my belief of Him by the hearing of His

Word so also the condemnation of me

Rom 10:17

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

KJV

as this faith grew proportionate to the hearing of His Word so also my need of Him 'all this was as a sinner' a self centered

self serving being far removed from the Image that 'IS' in Christ my Lord! Then I believed in the Lamb of God and was granted

repentance of my sins and Christ Himself entered my Being in The Person of The Holy Spirit!

I believe there are two Books one a creative book that we all are in 'the world' The Other His Written Word that explains all that

He has done 'The Bible' ... one passes away (creation) The Other 'IS' the embodiment of Christ Jesus which liveth and abideth forever!

One is the book of life the other 'IS' The Lambs Book of Life. One judges the mans responses and actions in life and the

other is a listing of Names who all bear the same responses and actions of Christ Jesus's Life while here-> as His Perfect Life is a

covering of all who are recorded within it...

So to enter the great purpose of The Father's Choosing The Bride for The Son and His doings as a systematic mechanics makes me

afraid to even begin there! So the question am I a Calvinist or Armenian well 'yes' both have tenents that I believe in but then both

exceed to where I cannot in my heart-> which I answer alone to God for in the end! The litmus of your belief as to proper or improper

is the witness of your life giving out The Love of Christ to God and others despite what it cost your to do so! For simply is it not

Jesus in you, living through you, and being seen by those outside of you?

Gal 2:20-21

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by

faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes

through the law, then Christ died in vain."

NKJV

Love, Steven

[Reformed-cross]

Godrulz:

theology (B. Th.= was a pastor; now studying about Openness of God <Pinnock, Boyd, Sanders> and Moral Government Theology <Charles G. Finney, Gord Olson, Otis>);

Just so we understand each other.

I regard Open Theism as a heresy. I utterly despise it and reject it on all counts. Those who posit the tenents of open theism are redefining God and are offering a god that is not biblical.

R.E.

[Fez]

If we were to live "perfect" lives, which we cannot, would there be a need for freewill at all.

Bowing completely to God's will? Would we then need the gift of freewill at all?

Just musing on the subject....

[childeye]

If we were to live "perfect" lives, which we cannot, would there be a need for freewill at all.

Bowing completely to God's will? Would we then need the gift of freewill at all?

Just musing on the subject....

I like your approach Fez. You effectively are saying free will is sin. Or in other words we only have the choice to sin apart from bowing to God's will. But if we say a free will is one that is not a slave to sin, then such a free will would bow to God and live perfectly.

1 John 3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

[childeye]

2will noun \ˈwil\

Definition of WILL

1: desire, wish: as a : disposition, inclination <where there's a will there's a way> b : appetite, passion c : choice, determination

2a : something desired; especially : a choice or determination of one having authority or power b (1) archaic : request, command (2) [from the phrase our will is which introduces it] : the part of a summons expressing a royal command

3: the act, process, or experience of willing : volition

4a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group <the will of the people>

5: the power of control over one's own actions or emotions <a man of iron will>

free willnoun

Definition of FREE WILL

1: voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>

2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Philippians 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

[childeye]

So God had Gideon destroy an army that covered the land like locusts with three hundred men.

God delivered Israel from the armies of Pharoah destroying Egypts armies without one Israelite lifting a sword.

God had little David send an army of Phillistines running with a sling.

But God does not intervene in the free wills of men?????

[Floatingaxe]

So God had Gideon destroy an army that covered the land like locusts with three hundred men.

God delivered Israel from the armies of Pharoah destroying Egypts armies without one Israelite lifting a sword.

God had little David send an army of Phillistines running with a sling.

But God does not intervene in the free wills of men?????

God moves men to comply with His will---willfully---and He moves mightily.

[saved34]

Yes, "free will" is mentioned in the Bible. No, "free agency" is not mentioned in the Bible.

But the common understanding of free will (from philosophy) is not the Biblical meaning of free will, in fallen unregenerated mankind.

So the two meanings must be distinguished in this discussion for the sake of accuracy and clarity.

When the meaning of philosophical free agency is examined, it turns out to be what the Bible means by the free will of fallen unregenerated mankind.

The Bible denies that fallen man has free will in its commonly understood meaning which comes from philosophy.

The free will of fallen unregenerated mankind which the Bible asserts is what the philosophers call free agency.

As a free agent, mankind chooses voluntarily, without external constraint.

But Scripture states that fallen unregenerate (sinful) mankind does not have the power (moral freedom) to choose to obey God

Eleanor, the burden of proof is on you to prove this particular thought from scripture. It is precisely because of free will that we are in sin today. Freewill is not defined by one's desire to do what's right. Man being a slave to sin, does not negate free will. God's estimation of man as all being unrighteous outside of the Lord Jesus Christ does not mean men cannot be pious, or do good things. There are ascetic's today who refuse to touch women, or certain meats, there are men today who are harmless, who wouldn't hurt a butterfly. free will has to do with man's ability to choose life, or reject it. We see this model, even in the old testament.

Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

God told Cain, "if you bring the right offering, I'll accept it. If you do not, sin lies at the door."

Gen 4:6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?

Gen 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

This is Cain, who is said to be of the wicked one, and God is giving him a choice.

[godrulz]

Godrulz:

theology (B. Th.= was a pastor; now studying about Openness of God &lt;Pinnock, Boyd, Sanders&gt; and Moral Government Theology &lt;Charles G. Finney, Gord Olson, Otis&gt;);

Just so we understand each other.

I regard Open Theism as a heresy. I utterly despise it and reject it on all counts. Those who posit the tenents of open theism are redefining God and are offering a god that is not biblical.

R.E.

Loud and clear. Calvinists are dogmatic and frequently misunderstand and misrepresent Open Theism (I am reading 'Beyond the Bounds'). I would also reject the straw man caricature you have of the view. Calvinists also misrepresent Arminians. You underestimate the strengths of opposing views and the problems with your own view. You overestimate that your view is biblical, logical. It is highly problematic. Perhaps you could start with Roger Olson's 'Against Calvinism' (he is Arminian).