Predestination

[Reformed-cross]

A God that makes choices that has eternal ramifications is a God that some folks just cannot stomach. No matter how much they mouth their submission to him, they are telling another story when confronted with the truth that God has not chosen everyone. When thats on the table, all of a sudden a "chosing God" is unfair, a tyrant, mean, unloving and really to their carnal minds unworthy of love and devotion. Ive had many many a conversation with people that express these very things and I am amazed that they cannot see the box they must keep God in so that they can feel safe with God. God is never unfair in any of his decisions, what is unfair, in the minds of many, is the misrepresentation of God by Calvinist in trying to be God, and reason in things that they really cannot comprehend. What you call folks not stomaching God, could be folks not stomaching a doctrine that they consider flawed and in error.

I think you have seen that I agree with you on a ton of things, Reformed, but in this I feel you are in great error. That does not mean we are not brothers, because we can both agree on the Lord Jesus Christ being our Life.

Hi Saved: Well, in short, a great majority of folks Ive talked to, and Im talking hundreds have finally come to the conclusions I stated. I didnt rhetorically speak for them and build a straw-man, these folks believe God is unfair if he doesnt chose all. He's a tyrant if he doesnt give equal opportunity to all to receive Christ and I have heard it directly from Calvary chapel Pastors in one of their conferences that "they elect themselves by their free-will" and many other such ideas.

If you or others bow out of such statements I can see why, but when the motivations behind why folks believe what they believe is revealed its not based upon the revelation of scripture but upon the immature thinking of their Christian days that they still hold, which is in short..."I saved myself by chosing Christ". While I dont have an axe to grind with the axiom its not doctrinally accurate.

Ill address a couple of things.

Scripture calls this a "partial hardening" because their were select Jews chosen of God, to have ears to hear, who would be heralds of this Gospel message to the world. This is not an edict for all time, because our Lord said, Once he is lifted up on the Cross, he will draw ALL MEN to himself.

Well, Im going to say two things. One, you cant have it both ways...Why was not Jesus just addressing Jews when the Jewish Jesus was talking to the Jewish Nicodemus? That "all men" would have been confined to the Jews narrowing the scope of promise.

Secondly the text I quoted contains the remainder of his statement

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

If you hold to your Hebrew idom narrowing of the text in vs 37, you will need to in vs 40 as well seeing that Jesus was still finishing his same thought.

This puts you into muddy and dark thinking that no Christian will hold to. In short you are confining the people to whom God will give Jesus, to a 'select people'. That is my argument and I appreciate your agreement.

But if youre trying to confine the manner in which the Father gave to Jesus, then you will have to add those confines to the remainder of the the gospels which relegates the majority of Christ's teachings to the Jews and therefore catagorically undermines any promises Jesus makes as really unavailable to the gentiles. No orthodox new testament scholar holds that position.

Though I agree with you that God by his providence hardened Israel, it only proves my point even further that God did not intend to save those he hardened (as you have mentioned) and because of the source of that hardening which is God it hardly disproves my assertions that God has not chosen all. Your own admission "Chosen of God to have ears to hear" allows only God's working upon men in order for them to be saved. If that is true, which we seem to both agree then God looking into the future (foreknowledge) for the proper choice upon which he Elects is disallowed by your own argument. According to scripture having ears to hear is a work of the Spirit and therefore a part of what is called "what the Father gives me" vs 37

How do we know what God did as to foreknowledge? Well, I believe in the uniformity of life. Meaning that what is now is the same as was in the past. I dont use it as a hermeneutical method, but I see it as a viable way of thinking about things.

We see that God uses the Spirit of God to convice of sin, righteousness and judgment, that God must open their ears hear and eyes to see, He must heal them in order to save them, God must work upon them by the word, and go so far as to plant it in them so that what faith comes, comes by the word of God.

Because of all these biblical witnesses on how the Spirit of God works and what the Church must do to witness their message for Christ, we can know that the future to come (speaking from the time before the foundation of the world) has now come upon us and we are now in those days where the foreknowledge of God is now working. But how? By the instruments of people, the bible, the Spirit of God, the Church, the gospel message. In other words, God is busy every day bringing people to himself that ....as the scripture says..Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

So, I have no reason to think that the Father's giving to Jesus was a dispensation methodology, it is rather the same method that God has always used to bring to himself a people whom he will call his own. I have no reason to think that God's selection of a people for himself is anything less than 100% biblical and furthermore I dont have any reason to think that God waits for "anyone to chose him" because the super-abundant scriptures tells me that men come to God by way of the working of God upon them when they dont even seek him.

Lastly I gave an exegesis on Roman 8:29 in an early post yesterday, I also gave my understanding as to the intertwining of Election and sancification.

God owes no man salvation, or grace or the opportunity for salvation. If he owes then what he gives us is not grace but debt and obligation. But we dont find a covenant of obligation upon God, we find that God has expressed his love and mercies toward sinful humanity in the form of grace, a covenant of grace whereby God by his own choice and by his own power secured salvation for people who have not claim whatsoever upon God; and to those sinners he grants them eternal life.

What I do comprehend is a God that has told me "Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

I agree with Paul, God has the right. I am saying that the doctrinal position that some hold nullifies this text, therefore I have chosen to believe this text instead of their reasonings.

Now....Saved....Im typing this with a smile....even though its serious words....we are one in Christ.

R.E.

[saved34]

Hi Saved: Well, in short, a great majority of folks Ive talked to, and Im talking hundreds have finally come to the conclusions I stated. I didnt rhetorically speak for them and build a straw-man, these folks believe God is unfair if he doesnt chose all. He's a tyrant if he doesnt give equal opportunity to all to receive Christ and I have heard it directly from Calvary chapel Pastors in one of their conferences that "they elect themselves by their free-will"

Brother, we both know that professing Christianity is filled with all kind of lunacy in teaching. It should go without saying when a man makes a silly statement like "I elect myself". That should not be lumped upon those of us who disagree with Calvinism as if that's our stance. It would be akin to me saying all Calvinist believe babies go to hell. I would never place that upon all Calvinist. I would argue from a standpoint of truth until that person displayed wild or radical beliefs.

Well, Im going to say two things. One, you cant have it both ways...Why was not Jesus just addressing Jews when the Jewish Jesus was talking to the Jewish Nicodemus? That "all men" would have been confined to the Jews narrowing the scope of promise.

I think you completely missed my point on this issue, brother. The scripture you quoted from John 6:37 is distinctly Jewish, in that it is a direct fulfillment of prophecy. It was Prophesied in the old Testament that God would blind Israel(his chosen people) for the express purpose of bringing in the Gentiles (people who did not seek after God.."he will have mercy on whom he will"). We have the scriptures that predicted this, and we have Paul bringing it to full light in Romans chapter 9-11. We have clear scripture the links the statements to fulfilled prophecy, not so with Gentiles in this age of Grace. You do not have an ounce of scripture like these concerning the so called blinding of Gentiles.

Rom 11:9 And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.

Rom 11:10 "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."

Joh 12:37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.

Joh 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"

Joh 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,

Joh 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."

In other words, to try and make these things teachings for all time is akin to trying to repeat Pentecost, or our Lord's Virgin Birth...ie, things that were prophesied and literally fulfilled. Now, all scripture is not too us, but all scripture is for us. I do not have to dismiss vs 40, nor when our Lord talked to Nicodemus about the New Birth. I'm not even dismissing verse 37, I'm showing that it was fulfilled in the Blinding and hardening of Israel, Now show me where scripture says the same about the gentiles today.

In short you are confining the people to whom God will give Jesus, to a 'select people'. That is my argument and I appreciate your agreement.

But if youre trying to confine the manner in which the Father gave to Jesus,

I'm not confining anything, I'm just showing by scripture, that the Israelites not having ears to hear, nor eyes to see is a direct fulfillment of prophecy. Paul himself said he was among the small remnant of believing Israelites, and that the rest were blinded. No such statement from God like that concerning Gentiles in the world today.

Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Rom 11:3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."

Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."

Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

In fact, scripture says the exact opposite of this, a man or woman is not blinded by God, but by Satan, the god of this world. A far cry from saying almighty God has blinded them.

2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

2Co 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Contrast that with what he says about Israel:

Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY

You have not one ounce of scripture that says God blind men's minds to the Gospel, on the contrary we have scripture that says man harden his heart and will not recieve the love of the truth to be saved. Then will God send them a strong delusion because they would not receive the truth

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Though I agree with you that God by his providence hardened Israel, it only proves my point even further that God did not intend to save those he hardened

This is a decidedly false statement, God did indeed save some of the same people who were hardened and crucified our Lord. We know this from the great sermon delivered by Peter on Pentecost. Again, I say show and prove. Give me direct scripture in the New Testament that says God hardens men today the same way it was prophesied of Israel.

Act 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

We see that God uses the Spirit of God to convice of sin, righteousness and judgment, that God must open their ears hear and eyes to see, He must heal them in order to save them, God must work upon them by the word, and go so far as to plant it in them so that what faith comes, comes by the word of God.

He does this with all men. Even unsaved.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

.as the scripture says..Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

This particular quote is speaking of the Gentiles (corporate) in contrast to the Jews (corporate). That is the theme of Romans 9-11. God has blinded his natural posterity, and brought in Barbarians, and people who never sought after him. "He has mercy on whom he will".

I dont have any reason to think that God waits for "anyone to chose him" because the super-abundant scriptures tells me that men come to God by way of the working of God upon them when they dont even seek him.

I believe this as well.

God owes no man salvation, or grace or the opportunity for salvation.

But the beauty of it all is, he offers it to us freely. He does not owe us a thing, but being who he is, he has charged himself with the redemption of poor souls. Bless his name! Not simply for those of us who are saved, but for all mankind. Which is why it will be a shame when many enter hell in spite of God's provision.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

[Floatingaxe]

The Image of God is not sovereignty of will. That would be a Satanic proposition wherein he says, I shall ascend my throne above the stars of heaven even unto the throne of God. Only in thinking his will is soveriegn would he entertain such a thought. The Image of God is about His immutable and perfect Character wherein Paul says in Romans 1:23, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man.

Yes, God has a sovereign will and He gave mankind the same blessed trait. He gave man the planet to subdue, control and manage.

[enoob57]

I'm not aware of the tension of which you speak.

All this being originally of the Greek Language (the most accurate ever spoken toward direct meaning) could have stated

your Calvinistic leaning more succinctly then these words that are evidenced below! However you must reinterpret their simple

meaning to relax the tension of your theological stance!

(John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:19; John 6:51) does not really mean "world"

(1John 2:2) does not really mean "the whole world."

(1Tim. 2:6) does not really men "all,"

(1Tim. 2:4) does not really mean "all men,"

(Heb.2:9) does not really mean "every man,"

(Isa.53:6) does not really mean "us all."

"truths may seem to us irreconcilable only because our finite minds cannot understand the Infinite; and we must never allow our faulty apprehension of the eternal counsels of God to hinder unquestioning faith in the words of Holy Scripture."

The Theological tension:

Ezek 33:11

11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

NKJV Most of Israel rejected-> against God's desire that they should not!

Matt 23:37-39

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

NKJV Christ emulating the Father's desires the same way!

Phil 2:10-11

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

NKJV The eternal outcome of all= confessing Christ is Lord yet some perishing!

2 Peter 3:8-9

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

NKJV

Election then is not based on God desires totally but choice as well. The two thieves both having heard Jesus asking His Father to forgive them for they did not know what they were doing! Yet one stayed in his mocking and the other repented and called out to Jesus to save him... We know that Christ did! You say one elect the other not but I say they were both interceeded for By The Great High Priest Jesus The Christ yet only one elected to receive the Free Gift... Love, Steven

[OneLight]

means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge?

Onelight: God didnt look into the future to find out who's going to believe. Why? Because its completely unnecessary.

It is the only analogy I could come up with that best describes foreknowledge. God is Omniscience, so He doesn't have to look anywhere. He knew who would accept salvation and who would not. He knew who He could send to Jesus. He knew who His elected would be before He created them. Just because God knew, does not tell us that He could not see who would accept Him through the free will of choice He gave us all.

Strange thing, this subject can become. Some would ask why would God create someone who He knew would reject Him. The only sense we can make of this is that "All things work together for the good to those who love God", even if He uses those who will not accept Him to accomplish His will. Ever look at how sin destroys a person and say to yourself that you never want to become like them? Because of this, one turns to God.

For me, it took years to wrap my mind around the fact that God did give us a freewill to choose while still being able to know who would accept Him before He ever created anything. Time is not a factor to God. He can see eternity all at once. The very same time He thought about creation, He knew all about it, how it would all play out. Because of this, He accepted it all before creating all that is created. That makes Him in control, the very reason why we can find rest and piece in Him.

1. God's chosing causes the person to chose....Joh 6:37 Whatever the Father gives to me will come to me;

This means that God is the one who creates the 'chosing' or better, causes the belief. So, to look into the future to find out if someone will believe...well they wont...Why?

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

See above.

2. God is not 'waiting perse' to see if someone will chose him. Election is not "Christians are elect because they "really really" elect themselves and then God elects them.

That is pure eisogesis and though its taught in many a church is as unbiblical as the mass.

See above. To add a bit to what I said, where does it say God has to wait for anything? He is Omniscience. I can see how what you think I believe should not be taught, because your idea of what you believe I am saying is really off the wall. Big red flags should fly everywhere if anyone tries to teach that.

3. The foreknowing of God is not a 'search for those who beleive'. God's foreknowing is the basis for the persons belief. Jesus is the author of faith, if thats true which it is, then its not necessary for God to 'search for belief' in the future. Unless God himself did what was necessary to bring about conversion, no one would be saved, they would all die in their sins.

God is everywhere at the same time, knows everything at the same time, and can do anything at the same time. He is Omnipresence, Omniscience and Omnipotence. The confusion, and division, comes from trying to explain this. His attributes allow Him to know everything before He created everything because he is everywhere at the same time. This very second is the same second He created what has been created. Time has no affect on Him one bit. Time only relates to us.

Salvation to us is time sensitive. In other words, we never know when we will die or have another chance to accept Christ. God knew when the perfect time is for us to accept Him, when to have His Spirit convict us of our sins. Yet, He will never force Himself on anyone, for love does not seek its own. He allows us to choose to accept Him. Otherwise, there would be none lost.

4. The idea that God needs foreknowledge to call some one Elect is to say God is waiting for the sinners approval before God can then make his decisions.

Is that really the picture that the scripture presents of God? I say its not even close.

See above.

5. What the real rub is about is that those who believe in free-will+fairness+universal opportunity needed to concoct a line of reasoning that can be smuggled into 'foreknowledge'. What makes that text and others like it an easy pick is because it sound plausible to a newbie Christian asking hard questions of leaders they cannot answer.

So, what may be simple to you is not even biblical is just a stop-gap reasoning to inject free-will where its too scary to believe God has not 'foreknown' everyone.

Please explain what you said above. It sounds like you do not believe God is not Omniscience.

A God that makes choices that has eternal ramifications is a God that some folks just cannot stomach. No matter how much they mouth their submission to him, they are telling another story when confronted with the truth that God has not chosen everyone. When thats on the table, all of a sudden a "chosing God" is unfair, a tyrant, mean, unloving and really to their carnal minds unworthy of love and devotion. Ive had many many a conversation with people that express these very things and I am amazed that they cannot see the box they must keep God in so that they can feel safe with God.

R.E.

Again, I am having a hard time following your direction of your words. Scripture clearly states in Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Where do you stand on the Predestination idea? I thought I knew until this post. Now I am uncertain.

[OneLight]

OneLight: It saddens me to see you withdraw from our conversations for reasons you do not explain well enough for me to garner an understanding. Can you be more specific so I may find correction if I am in error?

Eleanor: I'm sorry to disappoint, OneLight, but you are not in error.

Our approaches to Scripture are just not compatible.

Kind regards,

Eleanor

Will you please take the time to explain to me what these approaches are? You have mentioned this more then once with an explanation.

[OneLight]

Allow me to ask this question. Why would God call many, if He knew who He would choose through predestination, not having to ability to choose?

Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

[enoob57]

I'm not aware of the tension of which you speak.

All this being originally of the Greek Language (the most accurate ever spoken toward direct meaning) could have stated

your Calvinistic leaning more succinctly then these words that are evidenced below! However you must reinterpret their simple

meaning to relax the tension of your theological stance!

(John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:19; John 6:51) does not really mean "world"

(1John 2:2) does not really mean "the whole world."

(1Tim. 2:6) does not really men "all,"

(1Tim. 2:4) does not really mean "all men,"

(Heb.2:9) does not really mean "every man,"

(Isa.53:6) does not really mean "us all."

"truths may seem to us irreconcilable only because our finite minds cannot understand the Infinite; and we must never allow our faulty apprehension of the eternal counsels of God to hinder unquestioning faith in the words of Holy Scripture."

The Theological tension:

Ezek 33:11

11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

NKJV Most of Israel rejected-> against God's desire that they should not!

Matt 23:37-39

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

NKJV Christ emulating the Father's desires the same way!

Phil 2:10-11

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

NKJV The eternal outcome of all= confessing Christ is Lord yet some perishing!

2 Peter 3:8-9

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

NKJV

Election then is not based on God desires totally but choice as well. The two thieves both having heard Jesus asking His Father to forgive them for they did not know what they were doing! Yet one stayed in his mocking and the other repented and called out to Jesus to save him... We know that Christ did! You say one elect the other not but I say they were both interceded for By The Great High Priest Jesus The Christ yet only one elected to receive the Free Gift... Love, Steven

There is a Biblical resolution to the "tension."

Yes it will be here

1 John 3:1-3

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

NKJV

The purity of which is spoken of is here

1 John 3:18-21

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

NKJV In humble response to His Power within we are only made able to do this...

Matt 18:3-5

3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

NKJV This humility is directly proportional to truth 'We have only just began in Him' how then shall we propound upon the Councils of the Godhead before we were ever brought into being? Pride is elusive we all must guard ourselves of it's ugly nature... knowledge puffs up and becomes the doorway for it's entrance into being!

Rom 11:33-36

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has become His counselor?"

35 'Or who has first given to Him

And it shall be repaid to him?"

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

NKJV From Genesis to Revelation lies the truth of what Paul is saying and past finding out is the hope of the child that one day it will be told to us that which we cannot know now! Which is in fulfillment of His Word... this the tension -the grip of His Own Hand about those who wait upon Him into the eternity! Now we are enabled to better understand that when two things are said to us within His Word; that our resource within 'IS' Him; we are not able to resolve without altering His Words given us in that Word ... we wait in the perfect obedience and Love that is expected of us from within! For this is the glory and honor due Him

Matt 16:24

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

NKJV

Love, Steven

[childeye]

The Image of God is not sovereignty of will. That would be a Satanic proposition wherein he says, I shall ascend my throne above the stars of heaven even unto the throne of God. Only in thinking his will is soveriegn would he entertain such a thought. The Image of God is about His immutable and perfect Character wherein Paul says in Romans 1:23, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man.

Yes, God has a sovereign will and He gave mankind the same blessed trait. He gave man the planet to subdue, control and manage.

Floatingaxe, Of course God has a Sovereign will, that's why He is God, The Most High. Also, that is why we are not the Most High. We were made a little below the Angels, but above the other animals. Our will does not trump God's will, Who made us what and who we are. Is not this sovereignty we claim, the same lie that made us believe we could improve our station under Him by becoming like gods through obtaining knowledge of moral choice? We can't disobey God and live. If free will and sovereignty of will must include the ability to disobey God, then that is like thinking you can eat yourself and survive. That's why the Midianites slew one another in the dark. Even because God can make men do such things.

[OneLight]

OneLight: It saddens me to see you withdraw from our conversations for reasons you do not explain well enough for me to garner an understanding. Can you be more specific so I may find correction if I am in error?

Eleanor: I'm sorry to disappoint, OneLight, but you are not in error.

Our approaches to Scripture are just not compatible.

Kind regards,

Eleanor

Will you please take the time to explain to me what these approaches are? You have mentioned this more then once with an explanation.

That would require a new thread.

Prinicple #1:

Scripture must be allowed to say what it plainly states, even if it seems totally contradictory to another Scripture.

We don't reconcile them with human logic or reasoning by mitigating the clear meaning of either one.

We find reconciliation from the whole counsel of God which shows their compatibility, as they are stated.

Agreed

Principle #2:

Only Scripture is authoritative.

Only Scriptural prinicples are used to explain Scriptural matters.

Priniciples based in human sentiment, logic, reasoning, etc., rather than Scriptural prinicples, are disallowed.

Agreed

Principle #3 :

We are to sit under the Scriptures, not over them.

We do not subject them to any understandings outside themselves, we take them at their word, in their own terms.

Agreed

They are not one's personal Khalil Gibran, which one explores to find what is personally meaningful, according to one's particular view of it.

That is eating the crumbs from the master's table.

What do you mean by the above? If you are likening our discussion to someone who like to create platitudes, I agree, it should not happen.

Scripture is the authoritative Word of God, to be understood in the power of its own meaning, whose purpose is to transform our received thinking and understanding, rather than to support it.

Agreed.

Now, we are in agreement, so where is the differences?