Predestination

[saved34]

saved34:

Again, there are many things we agree on and some are simply emphasis in one area or another. I know we dont see eye to eye. But allow me to say a few things.

1. I agree that Rom 11 and what happened to the Jews even while Jesus was "coming to the lost sheep of Israel" has applicability to Johns Gospel.

2. I agree that I could have mistaken your definition about corporate Election.

3. I also agree that I form a deductive argument in terms of the lost state of multitudes who have died without hearing the gospel. That conclusion does not necessarily equate to "the mind of God".

Lastly. Even though there are difference of opinion I would take a thousand more just like you to fill the world with the gospel of Jesus Christ and to declare the grace and blessing within the covenant of God.

Your brother and co-laborer in the harvest

R.E.

Reformed, I thank you for this post brother. A post like this goes a long way in humbling me. Sometimes much learning can lead to a big head, and we can forget what is the most important things, which is brotherly love. I know I tend to drive home points like a bull in a china shop, and that can simply be from pride at times and not for the glory of Christ. I have been blessed tremendously by your posts and look forward to reading more from you. Be encouraged man of God.

[Guest]

Free

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

Will

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-21

~

.... Fresno Joe, Respectfully, I really don't see how those who choose darkness see the Light, they are afraid of it and fight against it. Obviously, you are equating free will with choice, I am talking about the reasoning behind the choice.

1 Timothy 1:14-16 New International Version (NIV)

14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Free

And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. Luke 23:38-39

Will

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:40-42

Pure Grace

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[xero]

Lol this is hilarious, God predetermines everything, He predetermined this conversation about predetermination so we could determine the nature of predetermination?!? Its as if that rod of iron He rules with is irony. hahahaha When God makes you laugh its truly a blessing.

Anyhow drop the free in free will for a moment and the picture becomes much clearer. Its a will which doesnt go into effect until the death of the testator. Now bring free back and its easy to see we are free to choose if we will bear false witness against Christ or will bear testimony of Christ. Life is like a court case and our personal cases are determined by our association, testify Christ and He testifies for you. Obviously this is all simplification but it isnt an intellectual giant of a problem. God is a dictator, Matthew 4:4 "man does not live by bread and bread alone but every word that proceeds from the mouth of God", considering God says everything that man does He is quite literally a Dictator. hahahaha lol He is so humorous its too bad it goes mostly unnoticed. Im telling you guys irony has been a sure measuring rod sufficient for any who would rule. lol Take note of the pun in PUN-Ish-ment. Alright enough playing with Word associations and mixed metaphor for now.

[enoob57]

Lol this is hilarious, God predetermines everything, He predetermined this conversation about predetermination so we could determine the nature of predetermination?!? Its as if that rod of iron He rules with is irony. hahahaha When God makes you laugh its truly a blessing.

Anyhow drop the free in free will for a moment and the picture becomes much clearer. Its a will which doesnt go into effect until the death of the testator. Now bring free back and its easy to see we are free to choose if we will bear false witness against Christ or will bear testimony of Christ. Life is like a court case and our personal cases are determined by our association, testify Christ and He testifies for you. Obviously this is all simplification but it isnt an intellectual giant of a problem. God is a dictator, Matthew 4:4 "man does not live by bread and bread alone but every word that proceeds from the mouth of God", considering God says everything that man does He is quite literally a Dictator. hahahaha lol He is so humorous its too bad it goes mostly unnoticed. I'm telling you guys irony has been a sure measuring rod sufficient for any who would rule. lol Take note of the pun in PUN-Ish-ment. Alright enough playing with Word associations and mixed metaphor for now.

Because of hell and it's filling you are wrong in your post ... no dictator allows those to leave but keeps them under their rule as dictator! Love, Steven

[childeye]

Childeye said: The difference is that Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil. He had not been corrupted with a false image of god.

Then wouldn't that make Cains situation even more so a choice than Adam's? Further more, Cain was in the very presence of God himself. You are taking a clear text that says God himself, not a prophet, not a go between, God. He is the one that gave each man his choice. Unless you're willing to say God didn't really mean they had a choice, shouldn't you conform your theology to fit the word, instead of the other way around? By your reasoning, because Adam made the wrong choice, he could not do anything but that. Even though we both know he was considered innocent at the time. Both men ended up making the wrong choice, so using morality as the difference is pretty much meaningless. Man having the ability to choose is not resting on morality. Are you prepared to say God did not really mean all that he said to Cain? His offer of doing the right thing was not a legit offer? Your argument in light of scripture is full of too many holes, my friend.

This is what scripture says. Romans 7:21, I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. You are basing the existence of free will on the presence of a choice between good and evil while I am saying that this choice is the product of eating from the tree of moral knowledge and wouldn't happen otherwise. So no, Cain would not have more of a choice since he cannot choose to be free from this law. So when I say Adam had a free will, I am saying he was above reproach, but gave into him who intimidated him into believing he wasn't above reproach. And this was done by making a reproach upon God. I therefore believe it can be established in scripture that righteousness is not based upon knowledge of good or evil or choice, but based upon faith in the True Image of God. As such I can agree that the ability to choose is not resting on morality, but the choice to do what is moral, does. Man needs Love to be good, and God is Love, that's the bottom line.

Sin mastered Adam too, yet you do not deny that he had free will. Again, you must then come to the conclusion that God's words to Cain were not genuine if we take your own thoughts to their logical conclusion. It would be much easier to agree with clear scripture, than to argue in circles from your own opinion.

You do not actually understand my thoughts but consistently misconstrue them at every opportunity. As I see scripture saying manknd saw they were naked and hid from God, I point this out as a change in the will of man according to scripture. I note that the man cannot go back by simply choosing to not be ashamed of who he is. All you do is revert back to the fact a choice was made somewhere along the line, which of course I am not denying nor ever did. And from this position you claim I have a circular argument.

You are arguing from your own position of denying man free will because he is sinful.

I am believing the Christ's claim that sin is slavery. As such, it is his position I am arguing for. John 8:32-34

32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

My friend...it's so much to say just in this small quote. You are jumping about scripture that has no bearing on what we are discussing. I mean, if you are going to use satan, he is the originator of the "self will" . He spread that same disease to mankind. The very definition of sin is "I will" instead "Thy Will".

The fact you can say Satan has no bearing on what we are discussing is a sure indicator of a major disconnect here. For this is exactly what I am discussing. Free will describes a will free from any other external circumstances or divine intervention that would restrain or compel a person in their choice. Obviously, you would agree that at least some men do not have a free will, since you cite the disease that I am refering to as sin or vanity that disqualifies free will as valid.

However, what in the world does that have to do with discrediting free will? Even the verse you paraphrased concerning giving a person over to the devil, in order for his flesh (not his sinful nature, for this is talking about a literal destruction of the body, read it in context) to be destroyed. Compare it to 1 Corinthians 11:30-32. "Many of you Die (sleep)"

Quite simply, if a man has a free will, Paul couldn't give anybody over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, since neither Paul nor Satan would have any such power over men with free wills. Either something is meant to be accomplished here through such an excommunication or not. That seems quite plain to me.

This makes absolutely no sense, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but please phrase this statement so I can understand it clearly. Especially this line " I am saying that those who don't want their sins exposed are protecting their pride. And I say this to point out that their belief in free will is the basis for their fears of being exposed".

Sin is either a choice freely made or a disease in mankind, it is not both. That is the choice put before me in the Christ, since he submits to a cross and yet forgives those who crucify him, saying forgive them they know not what they do. I therefore must decide if he is speaking the Truth or if he is nuts. The implications that will occur according to which way I believe will be manifested in my actions. Jesus comes to divide. If I believe sin is a disease, I come into the Light to see the source of the problem exposed in the Light with no fear of protecting my image, for I hope for healing with a contrite heart. I like what I see in the Christ because I do not believe anyone would want to be a sinner, and Christ's words are full of understanding, and never condemnation. I would believe in the promise of being given a new heart, so that I could walk in God's ways and never again sin.

If I believe sin is a freely made choice, I see the Christ as absolute foolishness. It makes no sense to submit to torture and yet forgive those who would crucify you. For it is quite clear to me that we are in complete control of our actions and responsible for them. These that crucified this man, knew quite well what they were doing and freely chose to, so this Jesus probably was just not quite sane and same with his followers. If I believe sin is a choice made freely I must squash the teachers of such propoganda called good news, since they are giving people a license to sin. Before you know it everyone will start being gay and stealing without any conscience. I would point out that it is by my taking personal responsibility for my actions is why I don't sin. That is the cure. And those who don't join me in doing what is right, I must dispense punishment so as to deter all such people from doing evil. If I stand by and do nothing I am enabling them, and so it is for their own good I do it. And I would condemn myself, for I would think, who wouldn't rather get something for free than work for it? There are no Lame, there are no blind in any spiritual sense. They simply don't want to walk and don't want to see. God gave us commandments to keep and so He is not an idioit who gives us things to do that we can't do. This so called Christ is indeed a great evil.

Luke 18:11-14

King James Version (KJV)

11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Galatians 4:29

King James Version (KJV)

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

[enoob57]

The foolishness of taking our minds limitations and expounding upon the intricacies of God's Trophy and complete perfection The Bride for His Son...

Here is the harm of Calvinism:

God is Perfect and all His Ways are Perfect... YES?

So if God's Sovereignty causes as all to be under His Will and man has no choice as purported...

What exactly is the Judgment Seat of Christ for and the Great White Throne of judgment... God is not bringing Himself to

judgment is He? These are end events where man answers for God then? Love, Steven

[childeye]

Childeye said: Yes I have succumbed to "fleshly lust". Why? Because I am flesh. Was it God's will or mine? That's an either or proposition.

No it's not. Scripture says this:

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

There is no question that it is of your own lust that sin comes about. You either resist it in the power of the Holy Spirit, or you succumb to it. Choice.

Saved 34, I already said I have succumbed to "my own" fleshly lust, I never said Godly Lust, nor did I say God tempts me. I said I did not will to be made of flesh. Hence I cannot freely choose to not have fleshly lust as free will implies. And since I have this will of the flesh to contend with, that is present against my will, my will is not free since I am admittedly unable to not succumb to it, hence nor can I simply choose to obey God appropriately. Moreover there is a Truth that is needed to not be enslaved to this fleshly lust or I am not taking Jesus seriously when he says the Truth will set you free. Therefore I can only surmise that there are lies I am believing that give fleshly lust power over me. All of this said in the context that I do not yet possess that Truth and am not yet in Christ.

Childeye said: This immediately brings to mind Paul's statement in Romans 7:20, wherein he says, Romans 7:20, Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

This is correct, the new man, the new nature fully desires to serve God, and scripture says it cannot sin. As a Christian you and I have two distinct natures. One from natural posterity, and one from God himself.

That still does not change the fact that the responsibility of sin falls directly on us.

That would depend, for if we hold others responsible, we also by our own judgment are held responsible. That is pertaining to sin. But as pertaining to the false image of god, we are responsible after being presented with the True Image. Consequently there are two judgments, one under Christ and one under the law.

Childeye said: Not at all, for sin has no power over me only because I am under grace. Praise God for this powerful statement, but you must use it in it's proper context, for Paul still says:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Rom 6:2 May it never be!

He would not have said this if we did not clearly have a choice to do so of our own accord. In the end, it is still your will, only the flesh is not a complete representation of the real you.

Okay maybe we're getting somewhere here for I keep talking about free will as an absolute. Therefore I am pointing to the condition of man before being regenerated as not able to qualify, and I think you are simply pointing to being alive and sentient which always qualifies. In Romans 7:20, I take Paul not to be speaking in the context of after coming to Christ and receiving the knowledge of God that renews the mind. I take him to be speaking about trying to accomplish righteous works according to the law, and sin in his members keeping him from being able to do so.

Now look at my statement about being under grace so as to not be under the law, and Romans 6:2, how shall we who died to sin still live in it?... I believe that as I forgive others their sins against me, turn the other cheek, pray for those who despise me, return good for evil, Love my enemies, I am being crucified with Christ. I do this with a pure heart that honestly believes these people that I forgive do not know what they are doing. They do not have a free will that I could hold them responsible for their tresspasses against me. The voice of Satan is against me in this. For he says they do have a free will and they are to be held responsible, and so I fight against any such claim of free will used in such a manner so as to condemn. As I continue in Christ and carry my cross in the same example he showed me, my flesh dies. That's why I do not sin, while I believe that. And that is why Paul said, How shall we who died to sin still live in it? He is not putting forth a choice, he is describing the consequences of walking in the faith of Christ.

So I agree with this that you say , and I count it as true not just for me, but for everyone. In the end, it is still your will, only the flesh is not a complete representation of the real you.

Childeye said : That is the will of the inner man that needs to be set free.

Morality is not the defining factor for free will.

In your definition no, but in mine yes it is. I say this because righteous men do not choose to do evil, nor even consider the option to hurt others as their free will. Unrighteous men cannot cease from evil and think it is their free will option to do so or not do so.

1 John 3:7

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He that believes will be saved, he that actively continues in unbelief is condemned already. This verse clearly sets forth a man or woman who is resisting the truth of their own selves.

Not at all, many scriptures say that Satan is behind the resistance. But of course it is they who are deceived and already condemned because of it and are manifested as children of Satan. For the lie that deceives is that God is a liar.

Childeye said: No I can't quote you as saying this, but the premise of my conjecture is verified in this:

Have you ever succumbed to "fleshly lust"? If so, why? Was it God's will, or yours?

You'll have to explain this quote more in depth, because frankly, that is a very heavy charge to lay on a fellow brother in Christ. You are saying that I am blaming God almighty because of a truth, it is not his will for you to sin? Is this serious? God's express will for his children is that we sin not.

I have laid no charge on you at all other than to say that with the theology of free will defined as the ability to freely choose to obey and disobey God, one must ultimately blame either God or man for sin. Why? Because the sole purpose of this theology is to establish responsibility for acts of both sin and righteousness. So as to say that without free will one would be blaming God according to such a theology of free will. For example you have already concluded that we cannot blame God for sin, so it must be us via free will. This is put forth by your posting scripture that says, not to let anyone say that God tempts me for you are tempted by your own flesh. Subsequently, under such reasoning the flesh is subdued by an act of free will and not subdued by an act of free will. This all in the context of after coming to Christ.

Consider the following statement: Even though we do still sin, it is not God's will. When we sin it is of our own lusts and will. It's very simple, what's not simple is your charge of me that I am somehow blaming God by saying that.

So to be clear, I am not saying you are blaming God, I am saying you're blaming man for sin. But since I do not believe in such a free will theology, I do not blame man nor do I blame God for sin. I blame a false image of god that causes man to blame others and consequently condemn ourselves by our own mouths. Look at the following scriptures: Note: they speak of being angry being a sin, and he speaks of how to stop sin, by walking in the Light, and how we need the knowledge of God to do this. He does not mention that we have a free will.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Eph 4:26 BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

1Co 15:34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

Childeye said: Do you actually believe someone would choose to have a reprobate mind that would do things inconvenient?

They didn't choose a reprobate mind, they chose to not retain God in their Knowledge, they chose to change his image into corruptible things, the judgement was giving them up to a depraved mind. Let's look at it in context. The scripture clearly says they knew the truth of God, and even knew God, but they changed his true image to something false. If you start at verse 18 and read the entire chapter you will gain a deeper understanding. These are not men who are ignorant of truth

Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

They are said to have actually known God.Of which, Cain is a perfect example.

Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Before these people were turned over to reprobate minds, they themselves denied God, and chose to suppress the truth. free will. If you doubt what I am saying, read the passage again for yourself, only read more than verses 22 and 23. Get the whole context my friend.

The scripture says they were aware that God was God, as in the station of the Godhead. For God has showed them that He is the Creator whose attributes are found in men by virtue of His creating them and not of themsleves. So that to think I chose to be wise or higher in stature than other men or even other animals of my own free will is vanity. It is saying the Truth men are suppressing, is that God makes a man in His image, not man makes God. Man is taking God for granted and presumes his will is free to make up his own truth but such is vanity. Under such thinking, man thinks God can't make him do anything, particularly make man Love Him. When in reality all that men are able to do God has given them, and what they are unable to do God has not given. Paul is asserting that men do not have free wills who create their own images of god to worship. They are in fact in darkness to think they can. For elsewhere Paul says these false gods are all demonic entities that cause men to bow down to them in vain worship of vain things. For we are made in God's image and to change His image to one that is corrupt is to become corrupt. Therefore He says men become as worthless as their idols. So men didn't choose this of their free will, they chose this out of vanity of unbelief. And all men are guilty of taking God for granted, just like Satan who knew by far, more than we ever knew. And we see this same vanity that began in heaven, in the Garden of Eden where we stupidly accepted the first false image of god from Satan.

[childeye]

The foolishness of taking our minds limitations and expounding upon the intricacies of God's Trophy and complete perfection The Bride for His Son...

Here is the harm of Calvinism:

God is Perfect and all His Ways are Perfect... YES?

So if God's Sovereignty causes as all to be under His Will and man has no choice as purported...

What exactly is the Judgment Seat of Christ for and the Great White Throne of judgment... God is not bringing Himself to

judgment is He? These are end events where man answers for God then? Love, Steven

I am not a Calvinist and I do not know if your post is addressed to me. But I would like to respond. I believe your question is right on point. What are we judged for if we have done nothing but His will? I would point out that Paul has said this is exactly what we would say in response to his preaching.

Romans 9:19-20

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Paul seems to be saying we have no right to question what God has made, or does, or how He works. Whether it be good or bad in our limited minds, it is as it should be. I guess that is the view from eternity. But we are in time at this moment and we must do the works that he has prepared for us that we should walk in them. I suspect at the end of our works if we have done them well and with a joyful demeanor, we will yet be thanking Him. rather than Him thanking us. So in conclusion I would guess that we are being judged for what we did with what He gave us.

[saved34]

This is what scripture says. Romans 7:21, I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me

Childeye, do you believe every man has come to this conclusion? You believe the everyday joe sinner, or one who has not been regenerated actually says he finds a law that when he would do good, evil is present with me? No my fried, only the light of God in a person's life can reveal this truth. Scripture paints an entirely different picture of unregenerate man, and it is not anywhere near what Paul was struggling with in the 7th chapter of Romans.

Eph 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

Eph 4:19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

Scripture says unregenerate man is "hostile" towards God. The 7th of Romans cannot possibly be applied to an unsaved man or woman. This person "delights in the law of God". No unregenerate is ever portrayed in that manner by the scriptures. You are misapplying these scriptures my friend. This makes the discussion difficult because it leads us off on wild tangents, having to go back and put the scriptures in their proper applications.

So no, Cain would not have more of a choice since he cannot choose to be free from this law

First of all, Cain was a sinful man, but applying the 7th of Romans to his condition is flawed. For Paul says the Law of Moses is what incited the law of sin in his members. The Law of Moses is what gave him the knowledge of his utter sinfulness.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

Cain as a natural man could not have that kind of revelation about his own sinfulness. In fact, he was self righteous in that he brought the fruit of his own labors. There are even people today who actually believe they are keeping the Law of Moses. They have never been born again, and have never seen the Law in it's true wrath and Holiness. "Jesus enforced it in all of it's purity at the Sermon on the mount. "you have heard by them of old...but I say if you even look at a woman to lust, you have already committed Adultery". This is not applicable to Cain's situation, as the Law was years away from being administered to man.

So when I say Adam had a free will, I am saying he was above reproach, but gave into him who intimidated him into believing he wasn't above reproach.

Please Childeye, let's be reasonable. Where has scripture ever said Adam was intimidated by satan? In fact it is said that Eve was deceived, not Adam. Adam's transgression was listening to his wife. Let's be careful to not add words to scripture, and let scripture speak for itself. That will keep us all from error.

1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

2Co 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

I therefore believe it can be established in scripture that righteousness is not based upon knowledge of good or evil or choice, but based upon faith

No one is saved apart from this. The Just shall live by faith. Hopefully I have not given the impression that I believe differently.

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

All you do is revert back to the fact a choice was made somewhere along the line, which of course I am not denying nor ever did. And from this position you claim I have a circular argument.

I'm suspecting we are both arguing in circles on this point. My entire argument for free will is not that man can jump up and say, "hmm, today I think I might just try to do right by God and clean up my act". No my friend, I do not believe that at all. I think somewhere during the course of this little debate, my true beliefs on the matter has gotten side tracked by my inability to convey my thoughts clearly through the written word, and maybe you skipping over a lot of things that I have typed due to the length of my posts. Either way, my position has always been that God reaches out to man, and man can receive or reject the truth that God gives him. We have the historical evidence all through scripture, including the accounts of Adam , and Cain, and on through Holy scripture.

Heb 3:15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."

I am believing the Christ's claim that sin is slavery. As such, it is his position I am arguing for. John 8:32-34

32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Correct, sin is slavery, but when God reveals his truth or light then sin is no longer an excuse. That is the judgement, that the great emancipator, The Lord Jesus Christ has come, men can no longer hide behind the excuse of Sin. If you continue on in it, you are not merely a slave, for slaves do not usually love their masters, you are in love with darkness, and desire to stay in it. Our Lord's Holy work is for all men, but it is special for those of us who believe because we actually partake of it's blessings, and we become free from the slavery of sin.

Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

The fact you can say Satan has no bearing on what we are discussing is a sure indicator of a major disconnect here

Read what I said again my friend. I did not say satan had no bearing on the deception of mankind, or tempting men to disrespect God, or anything of the nature. I said the scripture you quoted had no bearing on our discussion.

Quite simply, if a man has a free will, Paul couldn't give anybody over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, since neither Paul nor Satan would have any such power over men with free wills.

This is just your own thoughts on the matter and you do not have any scriptural backing what so ever. The giving the person up is not that they do not have a will, Childeye, satan is granted permission to test and try saints at God's behest. Even in the midst of testing a person is still admonished to hold up under the testing, or he can buckle under it. It's not saying there is some mystical giving a person to satan. No, saints are admonished to put some people ot of the congregation, and if they wont leave, they are to shun them, all the while still treating them as brothers.

1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.

1Co 5:2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

2Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.

2Th 3:15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Mat 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

The excommunication will either lead the brother to repentance, or satan will rend him to pieces much like he did Job. Yet, that man shall still be saved.

I come into the Light to see the source of the problem exposed in the Light with no fear of protecting my image, for I hope for healing with a contrite heart. I like what I see in the Christ because I do not believe anyone would want to be a sinner,

This is very interesting, and sounds exactly like the argument of free will that I have been trying to argue this whole time. lol I'm noticing a lot of "I's" in there. This is the free will that I believe. In light of truth, a man can make a decision for life, or death.(in rejecting it)

[saved34]

I said I did not will to be made of flesh. Hence I cannot freely choose to not have fleshly lust as free will implies. And since I have this will of the flesh to contend with, that is present against my will, my will is not free since I am admittedly unable to not succumb to it, hence nor can I simply choose to obey God appropriately. Moreover there is a Truth that is needed to not be enslaved to this fleshly lust or I am not taking Jesus

This is just arguing in circles with yourself, because this is not at all what I believe free will to be from scripture. You not choosing to be born or made flesh, has nothing to do with your ability to choose in face of God's light of truth. Even men of old had truth revealed to them by God himself, and he held them accountable for rejecting and retarding that truth. scripture clearly says God made the truth of him evident to them. Direct revelation or light.

Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

That would depend, for if we hold others responsible, we also by our own judgment are held responsible

There is no 'depends". You alone will answer for what you done. Even if you count "holding others responsible", it is still you, and scripture teaches us how to behave in accord with others. Frankly, this is one of many arguments you and I are having that is completely silly, and useless. It can only lead to more arguing. In our further discussions, I'll skip over the likes of arguing whether we have a responsibility to Christ when it comes to sin.

In Romans 7:20, I take Paul not to be speaking in the context of after coming to Christ and receiving the knowledge of God that renews the mind. I take him to be speaking about trying to accomplish righteous works according to the law, and sin in his members keeping him from being able to do so.

That interpretation cannot possibly be right, for Paul before his conversion considered himself above all the other Pharisees. He said as concerning the Law of Moses, he saw himself "blameless"

Php 3:4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:

Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

Php 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Act 22:3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.

Only when Paul came to see the true nature of the Law, did he see just how far from the mark he was. This is the account of a converted man, because only believers have two natures. Only believers have a war going on inside them.

1Pe 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

I believe that as I forgive others their sins against me, turn the other cheek, pray for those who despise me, return good for evil, Love my enemies, I am being crucified with Christ.

Dear fellow believer, all of those are good things. I believe it is the duty of every child of God to do those things, but they have absolutely nothing to do with you being Crucified with Christ. You have already been crucified with our Lord when you placed your faith in him. When you believed the Gospel. Our crucifixion with Christ is always spoken of in past tense and is not contingent on your good works.

Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Surely we are to put to death the deeds of the body, but our death, burial, and resurrection with Christ is a past tense event. We are now in him, bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh.

In your definition no, but in mine yes it is. I say this because righteous men do not choose to do evil, nor even consider the option to hurt others as their free will. Unrighteous men cannot cease from evil and think it is their free will option to do so or not do so.

1 John 3:7

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

No need to argue this point because even in your own experience, if you would be completely honest before God and your fellow man, you know there are times when you deliberately sin, and consider the option to hurt someone, maybe verbally, or some kind of way. You take the verse in 1John way out of context. It speaks of the practice of sin, not the act of sin. "doeth" means practice as a lifestyle. No believer practices sin as a lifestyle. But we know from that very same book that a person is a liar if he says he has no sin. Let's rightly divide scripture and not run off in tangents dear friend.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

For example you have already concluded that we cannot blame God for sin, so it must be us via free will.

How about let's not blame anything except what God blames. Scripture says God is not counting men's tresspasses against them. The sin that sends a soul to hell is unbelief. Making God a liar and not believing the record that God gave of his Son. That is what I believe. Anything else is just what others may think I believe.

The scripture says they were aware that God was God, as in the station of the Godhead. For God has showed them that He is the Creator whose attributes are found in men by virtue of His creating them and not of themsleves.

That is not what the passages say, that is your own exegesis. The passage clearly say, they knew God, and that God has shown them the truth. No need for me to re-quote, but I think maybe you need to re-read it and compare it to your interpretation.

So men didn't choose this of their free will, they chose this out of vanity of unbelief

They chose it in light of God's revealed truth. Whatever else you are arguing is not what I am arguing. They chose to change God's image in direct rebellion to his revealed light. Nothing more to add, nothing less. lol I see I have to be a lot more precise with my answers as not to be misconstrued, or to be found arguing in circles against something I do not believe myself. Edited April 10, 2012 by saved34