Killing And The Christian

[lesjude]

The principle of Mat 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what father God had always intended in the old and new testaments.

Gen. 4:7-8: Cain made the wrong sacrifice which opened the door to sin of hatred, jealousy and finally killing. The sacrifice Christians are to make is in Ro. 12:1-2. When they do not do this and yield to the Holy Spirit training as to what this means they will do what is right in their own sight. This often results in operating in expediency (armed guards in churches) which is operating on the knowledge of good and evil not Life.

Note what Jesus says in Mat 26:52. The disciples surely had a reason to wound and kill to defend each other and Jesus. The antichrist is killing saints and they are to follow nonresistance in Rev 13:7-10

Gen 4: 23-24 tells of a killing for a wounding and possibly to save his own life. He indicates he realizes this was wrong with the statement he makes about Cain in vs 24.

In Gen 8:6-7 is a clear statement on killing. The exception being capital punishment (Old and New testaments) and the OT wars of His judgments on nations whose cup of iniquity was full.

The Bible in Acts 17:25-27 speaks of all being one blood. God's heart at this time is that men be saved not killed or injured, especially not by carnal Christians defending themselves or others.

King David is a type of Christ and was called by God a man after His own heart. However, Father God told him he could not build the temple because he had shed much blood on the earth in His sight. Even though these were nations under judgment in wars God had directed. Here is what God said to King David: I Chron. 22:7-8 and I Chron. 28:3.

Jesus view of "just" wars and physical violence is in Luke 9:51-56. The disciples did not know what spirit they were of! They thought they had a "good" and Biblical response (see Elisha). Christians who either do not have the Holy Spirit or do not submit to His training in this area end up using 'expediency' or OT justifications for their violence which there is none there either.

Every non believer that a Christian kills ends up in the pit which was the point of what Jesus said in Luke 9:55-56. Then after you wound them, or talk to the ones who are left that are not killed, it makes it hard to tell them about the love of the Lord.

Some justify war by saying the US is a Christian nation. There is no such thing. There are nations with the King's citizens in them being salt and light, not acting like the world and serving its Godless systems or relying on the expediency of armed guards in churches.

At this point some anecdotal evidence is in order. Nate Saint and those with him who died rather than defend themselves or each other is an example. I will say they were told by leadership not to go and may be the reason for no Divine protection.

On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has some good points. After the battle of Gettysburg (the South lost) 100's of rifles were gathered up from the battlefield. Many were double and triple loaded. The reluctance to kill with an individual weapon seemed to be the reason. To cover their reluctance they did not fire but "reloaded". He goes on with more evidence throughout history to support the point, and the ways the military and our society has overcome this God given reluctance to kill.

Also he establishes the killing as the cause of PTSD. His ways to overcome this are junk but his evidence is compelling. This is sowing and reaping for violation of God:s laws.

PTSD is easily overcome by repentance and deliverance. How an airborne ranger and Delta force operator got set free by Jesus when we had the privilege of ministering deliverance to him is an interesting story.

General S. L. A. Marshall makes the point with his unique method of interviewing WW II, Korean War and Vietnam soldiers right after close combat. He interviewed the handful of survivors of Able CO. that hit the Dog Green on Omaha Beach. He talked with about 20 of over 200 not killed or wounded. It was the beach that Saving Private Ryan tried to show at the start of the film. He discovered a very high percentage that did not fire their personal weapons then, and in all these wars except Vietnam. By then the military had devised training to partially overcome the God given resistance to killing.

In Vietnam one platoon of less than 30 men stood off a force of 200 very determined NVA all night with no artillery and some of the time with no illumination. Near the end, having very little ammo left, knowing they were as good as dead they just all started laughing! Captured NVA later said this really affected their morale. I think the US troops had the resistance to killing removed and the NVA didn't. This platoon was mostly just a reg. bunch of draftees that had not even seen the elephant yet.

This training is so effective, along with the conditioning to violence that our society provides, that troops will assault immediately when ambushed by a superior well protected force and win! In training the same men thought to themselves, never will I do this! The other force probably still had that bothersome inhibition.

The US Marines seem to be most open and perhaps best at this. They tell all their 'boots' that they will make them into trained killers! The US Army does the same.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

You don't happen to be a Westboro Baptist do you?

Killing is not prohibited in the Bible. Murder is and like Cain's sacrifice, it's a matter of the intent of your wicked heart.

Peace,

Dave

[lesjude]

The principle of Mat 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what father God had always intended in the old and new testaments.

Gen. 4:7-8: Cain made the wrong sacrifice which opened the door to sin of hatred, jealousy and finally killing. The sacrifice Christians are to make is in Ro. 12:1-2. When they do not do this and yield to the Holy Spirit training as to what this means they will do what is right in their own sight. This often results in operating in expediency (armed guards in churches) which is operating on the knowledge of good and evil not Life.

Note what Jesus says in Mat 26:52. The disciples surely had a reason to wound and kill to defend each other and Jesus. The antichrist is killing saints and they are to follow nonresistance in Rev 13:7-10

Gen 4: 23-24 tells of a killing for a wounding and possibly to save his own life. He indicates he realizes this was wrong with the statement he makes about Cain in vs 24.

In Gen 8:6-7 is a clear statement on killing. The exception being capital punishment (Old and New testaments) and the OT wars of His judgments on nations whose cup of iniquity was full.

The Bible in Acts 17:25-27 speaks of all being one blood. God's heart at this time is that men be saved not killed or injured, especially not by carnal Christians defending themselves or others.

King David is a type of Christ and was called by God a man after His own heart. However, Father God told him he could not build the temple because he had shed much blood on the earth in His sight. Even though these were nations under judgment in wars God had directed. Here is what God said to King David: I Chron. 22:7-8 and I Chron. 28:3.

Jesus view of "just" wars and physical violence is in Luke 9:51-56. The disciples did not know what spirit they were of! They thought they had a "good" and Biblical response (see Elisha). Christians who either do not have the Holy Spirit or do not submit to His training in this area end up using 'expediency' or OT justifications for their violence which there is none there either.

Every non believer that a Christian kills ends up in the pit which was the point of what Jesus said in Luke 9:55-56. Then after you wound them, or talk to the ones who are left that are not killed, it makes it hard to tell them about the love of the Lord.

Some justify war by saying the US is a Christian nation. There is no such thing. There are nations with the King's citizens in them being salt and light, not acting like the world and serving its Godless systems or relying on the expediency of armed guards in churches.

At this point some anecdotal evidence is in order. Nate Saint and those with him who died rather than defend themselves or each other is an example. I will say they were told by leadership not to go and may be the reason for no Divine protection.

On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has some good points. After the battle of Gettysburg (the South lost) 100's of rifles were gathered up from the battlefield. Many were double and triple loaded. The reluctance to kill with an individual weapon seemed to be the reason. To cover their reluctance they did not fire but "reloaded". He goes on with more evidence throughout history to support the point, and the ways the military and our society has overcome this God given reluctance to kill.

Also he establishes the killing as the cause of PTSD. His ways to overcome this are junk but his evidence is compelling. This is sowing and reaping for violation of God:s laws.

PTSD is easily overcome by repentance and deliverance. How an airborne ranger and Delta force operator got set free by Jesus when we had the privilege of ministering deliverance to him is an interesting story.

General S. L. A. Marshall makes the point with his unique method of interviewing WW II, Korean War and Vietnam soldiers right after close combat. He interviewed the handful of survivors of Able CO. that hit the Dog Green on Omaha Beach. He talked with about 20 of over 200 not killed or wounded. It was the beach that Saving Private Ryan tried to show at the start of the film. He discovered a very high percentage that did not fire their personal weapons then, and in all these wars except Vietnam. By then the military had devised training to partially overcome the God given resistance to killing.

In Vietnam one platoon of less than 30 men stood off a force of 200 very determined NVA all night with no artillery and some of the time with no illumination. Near the end, having very little ammo left, knowing they were as good as dead they just all started laughing! Captured NVA later said this really affected their morale. I think the US troops had the resistance to killing removed and the NVA didn't. This platoon was mostly just a reg. bunch of draftees that had not even seen the elephant yet.

This training is so effective, along with the conditioning to violence that our society provides, that troops will assault immediately when ambushed by a superior well protected force and win! In training the same men thought to themselves, never will I do this! The other force probably still had that bothersome inhibition.

The US Marines seem to be most open and perhaps best at this. They tell all their 'boots' that they will make them into trained killers! The US Army does the same.

Your take on Matthew 5 is incorrect. If you are going to say that God advocates pacifism, you are going to have to explain why He has had Israel, at times, destroy entire nations of people. There is no such thing as a "Holy War" waged by a country. The United States has not been involved in a just war since WW II, however, you can't throw a blanket over the whole thing and car it wrong. This subject has been debated by people for centuries and pacifism is not advocated in the Bible when a nation is unjustly attacked. I take it you believe our armed forces to be criminals?

Please reread the initial post as it explains the wars in the OT and God's attitude even toward King David.

Preemptive aggressive war is an international war crime. It is one crime the Nazis were tried, convicted and hung for. As long as a nation wins or is strong enough they can do as they wish and do, because they can do as they wish.

Christians are to be transformed by the renewing of their minds into the stature and fullness of Christ. Who would Jesus kill in one of the nation's carnal wars? Would He approve of a citizen of His Kingdom doing the same? He made this very clear to His disciples.

You would be surprised who said this. He is long dead but his statement is true for all the wars the US ever fought.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

[oldzimm]

Oh well, I guess I'm a criminal, shame on me for doing my part to preserve freedom.

[OneLight]

You would be surprised who said this. He is long dead but his statement is true for all the wars the US ever fought.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Hermann Göring at the Nuremberg Trials said this. Are you equating the US to Nazi Germany?

[lesjude]

Grace to you,

You don't happen to be a Westboro Baptist do you?

Killing is not prohibited in the Bible. Murder is and like Cain's sacrifice, it's a matter of the intent of your wicked heart.

Peace,

Dave

No, they are an embarrassment to Christianity. I pray for the preservation of the lives on both sides, and Godly wisdom to end the killing for leaders such as President Obama. I have read of MANY examples of the preservation of God's people in combat, even when unsaved. Examples are Kenny Wayne Fields, Louis Zamperini in Devil At MY Heels and Unbroken, Eugene B Sledge, Marcus Luttrell to name just a few you may know. What God did for them will amaze anyone. Does this mean He approves of what they do? No. God is good, loving and merciful.

Is that like, I didn't know the gun was loaded, and I'm so sorry my friend.

I didn't know the gun was loaded, and I'll never ever do it again? Or maybe, Once the rockets are up who cares where they come down. It's not my department says Werner Von Brown?

If you have ever read Sergeant York's story, a Christian, you will see what he did was just cold blooded murder. You will also see the result of this on the rest of his life. It is also an excellent chance he was shooting Christians. EVERY war the US ever fought in it was nominal Christians killing nominal Christians. The exceptions are the more recent wars seen by many Christians as the crusades were. These things are the heart of Jesus?

Audie Murphy's life is another example of the results of killing in WWII. He was not a professing Christian as far as I know.

[Guest]

GOD bless our men and women in uniform. Thank you for your service to your country and for preserving the freedom that we all enjoy, even those who don't have a clue about which they speak. And those who are simpletons. (These last remarks are NOT directed at anyone using this forum.)

[Bold Believer]

The principle of Mat 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what father God had always intended in the old and new testaments.

Gen. 4:7-8: Cain made the wrong sacrifice which opened the door to sin of hatred, jealousy and finally killing. The sacrifice Christians are to make is in Ro. 12:1-2. When they do not do this and yield to the Holy Spirit training as to what this means they will do what is right in their own sight. This often results in operating in expediency (armed guards in churches) which is operating on the knowledge of good and evil not Life.

Note what Jesus says in Mat 26:52. The disciples surely had a reason to wound and kill to defend each other and Jesus. The antichrist is killing saints and they are to follow nonresistance in Rev 13:7-10

Gen 4: 23-24 tells of a killing for a wounding and possibly to save his own life. He indicates he realizes this was wrong with the statement he makes about Cain in vs 24.

In Gen 8:6-7 is a clear statement on killing. The exception being capital punishment (Old and New testaments) and the OT wars of His judgments on nations whose cup of iniquity was full.

The Bible in Acts 17:25-27 speaks of all being one blood. God's heart at this time is that men be saved not killed or injured, especially not by carnal Christians defending themselves or others.

King David is a type of Christ and was called by God a man after His own heart. However, Father God told him he could not build the temple because he had shed much blood on the earth in His sight. Even though these were nations under judgment in wars God had directed. Here is what God said to King David: I Chron. 22:7-8 and I Chron. 28:3.

Jesus view of "just" wars and physical violence is in Luke 9:51-56. The disciples did not know what spirit they were of! They thought they had a "good" and Biblical response (see Elisha). Christians who either do not have the Holy Spirit or do not submit to His training in this area end up using 'expediency' or OT justifications for their violence which there is none there either.

Every non believer that a Christian kills ends up in the pit which was the point of what Jesus said in Luke 9:55-56. Then after you wound them, or talk to the ones who are left that are not killed, it makes it hard to tell them about the love of the Lord.

Some justify war by saying the US is a Christian nation. There is no such thing. There are nations with the King's citizens in them being salt and light, not acting like the world and serving its Godless systems or relying on the expediency of armed guards in churches.

At this point some anecdotal evidence is in order. Nate Saint and those with him who died rather than defend themselves or each other is an example. I will say they were told by leadership not to go and may be the reason for no Divine protection.

On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has some good points. After the battle of Gettysburg (the South lost) 100's of rifles were gathered up from the battlefield. Many were double and triple loaded. The reluctance to kill with an individual weapon seemed to be the reason. To cover their reluctance they did not fire but "reloaded". He goes on with more evidence throughout history to support the point, and the ways the military and our society has overcome this God given reluctance to kill.

Also he establishes the killing as the cause of PTSD. His ways to overcome this are junk but his evidence is compelling. This is sowing and reaping for violation of God:s laws.

PTSD is easily overcome by repentance and deliverance. How an airborne ranger and Delta force operator got set free by Jesus when we had the privilege of ministering deliverance to him is an interesting story.

General S. L. A. Marshall makes the point with his unique method of interviewing WW II, Korean War and Vietnam soldiers right after close combat. He interviewed the handful of survivors of Able CO. that hit the Dog Green on Omaha Beach. He talked with about 20 of over 200 not killed or wounded. It was the beach that Saving Private Ryan tried to show at the start of the film. He discovered a very high percentage that did not fire their personal weapons then, and in all these wars except Vietnam. By then the military had devised training to partially overcome the God given resistance to killing.

In Vietnam one platoon of less than 30 men stood off a force of 200 very determined NVA all night with no artillery and some of the time with no illumination. Near the end, having very little ammo left, knowing they were as good as dead they just all started laughing! Captured NVA later said this really affected their morale. I think the US troops had the resistance to killing removed and the NVA didn't. This platoon was mostly just a reg. bunch of draftees that had not even seen the elephant yet.

This training is so effective, along with the conditioning to violence that our society provides, that troops will assault immediately when ambushed by a superior well protected force and win! In training the same men thought to themselves, never will I do this! The other force probably still had that bothersome inhibition.

The US Marines seem to be most open and perhaps best at this. They tell all their 'boots' that they will make them into trained killers! The US Army does the same.

Your take on Matthew 5 is incorrect. If you are going to say that God advocates pacifism, you are going to have to explain why He has had Israel, at times, destroy entire nations of people. There is no such thing as a "Holy War" waged by a country. The United States has not been involved in a just war since WW II, however, you can't throw a blanket over the whole thing and car it wrong. This subject has been debated by people for centuries and pacifism is not advocated in the Bible when a nation is unjustly attacked. I take it you believe our armed forces to be criminals?

Please reread the initial post as it explains the wars in the OT and God's attitude even toward King David.

Preemptive aggressive war is an international war crime. It is one crime the Nazis were tried, convicted and hung for. As long as a nation wins or is strong enough they can do as they wish and do, because they can do as they wish.

Christians are to be transformed by the renewing of their minds into the stature and fullness of Christ. Who would Jesus kill in one of the nation's carnal wars? Would He approve of a citizen of His Kingdom doing the same? He made this very clear to His disciples.

You would be surprised who said this. He is long dead but his statement is true for all the wars the US ever fought.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

1. The last statement was from Adolf Hitler.

2. Jesus told a Roman occupier that he wasn't doing anything wrong, only that he should conduct himself properly and not use his authority as a reason to shakedown people for money. That man was a soldier.

3. While aggressive wars are wrong, projecting military power onto an enemy who attacks your country is NOT. The Japanese attacked us in WW2. We beat their rear ends and my father helped and I am as proud of his actions as I can be. Korea was something necessary to prevent the spread of evil. Vietnam was the same. Communism was and IS evil.

4. You sound like Tony Campolo who quite frankly is full of baloney too.

You might be a believer, and you might not, but spare us the hooey. It's NOT going to work here.

[mizzdy]

The principle of Mat 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what father God had always intended in the old and new testaments.

If God had intended that no killing would take place on this fallen earth He would not have allowed stonings, wars, etc. Certainly He does not want us to kill anyone yet He has given us over to our fallen govts and we live by those rules. If a person is standing on His truths what can man do to them that God cannot undo, remember it is not man we should be wary of it is God who can kill both body and soul.

These passages are not talking about wars but four main areas where we should trust in God and not man, if we were standing firm on His word we would know automatically that we should not seek our own personal justices or vindication that is for God alone. We are shown four ways to nonresistance but if we go by your model we all would be naked and poor with no home, no food. Do you honestly think that is what God is showing us here? If a believer is being taken to court and that believer knows that he has done no wrong then go that extra distance with whoever wants to take things from you in the end he will be found out if not by man then God knows and will deal with it.

In the end these passage are about the behavior of the believer and how they are seen handling Gods instructions and those who wish to do us harm. They are about behavior that we should always remember to keep in mind after all we are not of this world and our walk should reflect that.

If we are truly walking with Him and our lives reflect that then the only reasons people would have for doing any of these things is because satan is jealous and wants what God has and has come to try and tear us down by attacking the very things the most people hold dear, money and themselves. We need to examine our value systems, our walk with Him and stay away from self serving actions such as hitting someone who hits you without first thinking or better yet asking the person why and trying to come to a conclusion. After all if we belong to Him who is being insulted, who is being sued, is it our own honor and glory we seek or is it His?

shalom,

Mizz

[lesjude]

You would be surprised who said this. He is long dead but his statement is true for all the wars the US ever fought.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Hermann Göring at the Nuremberg Trials said this. Are you equating the US to Nazi Germany?

No, but the principle fits all the US wars ever fought. You might want to do your own research. The easy ones are Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. The rest you will have to dig some but you will find it. I spent 5 years preparing to teach US and European Culture and 22 years doing it in a public high school.