Infant baptism

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357.

QUOTE

[johnP]

Hello shiloh357.

Are God's jugdements unfair? To say so is to call into question God's integrity.

I do not but you certainly question God's integrity. You change the word of God to make Him seem fairer. Get your doctrine right and you will see how unfair to us He is with what He has written.

If you had your doctrine right you would be claiming the same thing those people did, Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

And you ignore the answer to the question you should ask if you get the scriptures right. Under your doctrine God is fair so the question does not enter your mind, therefore your doctrine is wrong.

Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Yet you say Pharaoh made up his own mind and I say God created Pharaoh to destroy him and you say I have;

...hyper-literal interpretations...

Which I take means I believe the scriptures as they come to us. This is an unusual charge against me and I take it as a compliment.

...but it is the properties of the two that determines their response to heat of the sun. In the same way, God hardened Pharoah's heart, but that ultimately was Pharoah's choice.

You deny the explicit word of God, that it is God that hardened his heart and you say that he hardened his own. God can treat us as He wants because we are rebels and have no rights.

It does not mean God hated Esau just because he was Esau.

I never said He hated Esau because he was Esau. The scripture says that God hated Esau for no particular reason. That's the point. That is the reason some will say God is unfair and that is why Paul answers the point by saying, "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? " Until you get that answer to that question you have the wrong doctrine.

As for the hardening who he wants to harden, again, you need to study the issue a bit deeper than these face value, hyper-literal interpretations.

RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Rom 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Because I believe that you say I have hyper-literal interpretations of scripture.

I believe what the Bible says, and it says that children are not put to death for the sins of their parents and vice versa.

Why do babies die if they are not suffering the sin of Adam? You yourself said they have an inherrent innocence. For what crime do they suffer death? They have done nothing good or bad as far as you are concerned. Why do people suffer all the time for just being born?

God is at peace with the world.

That is unbelievable. What bible have you got then? Are you sure you picked up a bible and not a science fantasy book?

REV 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

REV 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

God is at peace with the world is He?

He could have surrendered and God would have not have continued with the plagues.

That's just the point. RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

And this you deny. God wanted to display His glory and you do not see His glory because you do not believe what He says. Because that is not fair.

God is not holding anything against anyone. Sin has already been payed for. It has been judged and taken out of the way.

Why do babies die then? You have another gospel. This is the worse of errors. To say Jesus paid the penalty for everyone, it is an invention.

It cannot be held accountable for what it cannot possibly know.

Then why do they die? Death is the wages of sin.

Until a person understands the presence of the law and that they are violators, there is no violation attributed to them.

I don't know whose spell you have come under but your doctrine is yours and you are held accountable for being a false teacher. Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Romans 4:15

for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation.

This is only applicable to those that God has chosen. Because if Jesus paid the penalty for sin for all mankind then what sin can anyone go to Hell for? Are you saying that everyone every born will go to Heaven? Is everyone saved? What sin do they go to Hell for? If there is a sin to go to Hell for then Jesus did not die for all sins. Another contradiction.

NO, God does not "choose" that. If that were his choice, then He would not have gone to the trouble to place into effect a plan to bring us back into fellowship with Him.

Good on you. You teach God well.

It shows His unconditional love for all of us. For you to accuse Him of condemnation shows that you do not know Him very well.

Tamed Him have you? Have we managed to rid ourselves of this Judge have we?

A baby is not in an active state of rebellion.

Know the heart of a baby too! You are in a high and lofty place that is sure.

I realize that it irks you that God is fair and just, but He is, and I know Him well enough to know that infants and those who are severely mentally disabled and have been robbed of the possibilty of ever making a choice, are kept in the hand of God, and are not sent to Hell at death. I will never question the goodness of God. I have complete faith in Him and His Character.

You know this! You know this from God Himself or from reading the scriptures? If it is reading the scriptures you have it wrong. If from God Himself then how do you know this was God? Show me the scripture to support this. You cannot can you? You have made it all up based on what yo think is fair.

I am not talking about gossip! It could be something about company operations or something else. It does not have to be gossip. Besides you are missing the point.

I did not miss the point. LK 11:44 "Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it."

Bit unfair isn't it. To become unclean without knowing it and being held responsible and accountable for it even when not knowing it.

johnp.

[Guest shiloh357]

Hello shiloh357.

QUOTE 

Are God's jugdements unfair? To say so is to call into question God's integrity.

I do not but you certainly question God's integrity.

No it is you that are calling God a liar by claiming that he is unfair. To be fair is the same thing as being just. All of God's judgements are fair because they are "just." If God is unfair then we have cause to find fault with Him. However that is not the case. As it is written: Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

You change the word of God to make Him seem fairer. Get your doctrine right and you will see how unfair to us He is with what He has written.

If you had your doctrine right you would be claiming the same thing those people did, Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

And you ignore the answer to the question you should ask if you get the scriptures right. Under your doctrine God is fair so the question does not enter your mind, therefore your doctrine is wrong.

Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Yet you say Pharaoh made up his own mind and I say God created Pharaoh to destroy him

God did not create Pharoah to destroy him, and the text does not say that at all. Pharoah was allowed by God to ascend to his position of power and God used that to His advantage. God did not exert postive evil influence over the mind of Pharoah. In everything that happened, Pharoah acted freely. He chose His own course. He was voluntary in his schemes of oppressing the Israelites. He was voluntary in his opposition to God. He was voluntary when he pursued the Israelites to the Red sea. In all his doings he acted as he chose to do, and with a determined

[johnP]

shiloh357.

No it is you that are calling God a liar by claiming that he is unfair. To be fair is the same thing as being just.

Is that what I said, I'm sorry, you should point out where I said it so that I can correct it. I thought I said 'unfair to us' or unfair in our eyes.

Posted: Oct 16 2004, 08:12 AM

Are God's jugdements unfair? To say so is to call into question God's integrity.

I do not...but by what authority and standard are you assessing God? As if there is any. God does as He pleases and is not subject to our measure.

To be fair is the same thing as being just.

Ok but it is not our fair. He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, " `though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.' Lk 8:10.

I did say that you deny the word of God and you call me cloddish because I believe the scriptures.

You.

Pharoah was allowed by God to ascend to his position of power and God used that to His advantage.

The bible.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

You.

In all his doings he [Pharaoh] acted as he chose to do, and with a determined

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE 

No it is you that are calling God a liar by claiming that he is unfair. To be fair is the same thing as being just. 

Is that what I said, I'm sorry, you should point out where I said it so that I can correct it. I thought I said 'unfair to us' or unfair in our eyes.

QUOTE 

Posted: Oct 16 2004, 08:12 AM

Are God's jugdements unfair? To say so is to call into question God's integrity.

I do not...but by what authority and standard are you assessing God? As if there is any. God does as He pleases and is not subject to our measure.

QUOTE 

To be fair is the same thing as being just.

Ok but it is not our fair.

IF God was unfair to anyone, it was to Himself. God did not sin. God was not responsible for the fall of mankind. It was not fair that God should have to find a way to make things right. It was not fair that Jesus had to suffer, and die. It was not fair to God that He had to sacrifice His own son. It was not fair that Jesus should bear our sins on the cross. In all fairness, God should not have had to do anything. It is not fair that Christ be judged for sins that He did not commit. There is where the unfairness lies. It is not fair that you should recieve grace and forgiveness when what you deserve is God wrath. Instead He is unfair to Himself and gives you mercy.

I did say that you deny the word of God and you call me cloddish because I believe the scriptures.

You.

Pharoah was allowed by God to ascend to his position of power and God used that to His advantage.

The bible.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

You.

In all his doings he [Pharaoh] acted as he chose to do, and with a determined

[Guest savedbythepassion]

Having waded through the long running duel here, I have noted several things that interest me, one who was baptised as an infant, grew up in the Church, received training and Confirmation and is a confessed believer in Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior.

Most posts have alluded to Baptism not being a means of salvation, yet Scripture refers to Baptism having saving value:

Mark 16:16

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The great commission is for Christians to go to "ALL NATIONS" making disciples and baptising them. No age given for baptism.

Matt 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

As Christians we hold to One LORD, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism (which is the public profession of our faith. This could mean infant baptism, believed by some to 'work faith' in the child followed by a confession of faith like Confirmation in the teenage years).

Ephesians 4:2

with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Nowhere in Scripture have I found any rigid process outlined for how to do Baptism, the technique, etc. I know it involved water under John's baptism of salvation through repentence. Jesus underwent this baptism, although he had no need of repentence. He later spoke of his baptism which was to come: the baptism of his suffering, death and resurrection which we too have shared and will share again.

[johnP]

Hello savedbythepassion.

Most posts have alluded to Baptism not being a means of salvation, yet Scripture refers to Baptism having saving value:

He who believes and is baptized will be saved I think only means that baptism is so closely linked to one's salvation in time that it is taken for granted that this will happen within a breath.

The great commission is for Christians to go to "ALL NATIONS" making disciples and baptising them. No age given for baptism.

But we can't disciple babies. Young children can be trained though. But you do not say what baptism means.

He later spoke of his baptism which was to come: the baptism of his suffering, death and resurrection which we too have shared and will share again.

MK 10:38 "You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?"

MK 10:39 "We can," they answered.

Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with...

LK 12:49 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed!

I believe the baptism He was talking about was His death and resurrection as you say.

This baptism is the reality of our baptism which is a type, or better, a reflection. That is why I say that our baptism is a reenactment of Christ's death and resurrection. This He symbolised by being baptised by John, prefiguring the death and resurrection He was about to go through.

Nowhere in Scripture have I found any rigid process outlined for how to do Baptism, the technique, etc. I know it involved water under John's baptism of salvation through repentence.

There is a proper order to it because I believe that baptism is meant to be the first step of obedience on being born again. Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. It is believing or not believing that is the key to salvation. Baptism should follow immediately upon conversion but it is not essential;

AC 18:24 Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John.

Apollos.

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:13.

So Apollos was a born again believer with a gift of teaching the truth even though he seemed to have no connection to the disciples. Baptism does not save.

I know it involved water under John's baptism of salvation through repentence.

AC 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water...

But John's baptism was not a baptism unto salvation. I'd question this. Why rebaptise those that were baptised by John?

AC 19:3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.

AC 19:4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

These people were not saved until they met Paul Although it is a possibilty that the Old and New were in a state of flux. That there was a change taking place from the old to the new because the Holy Spirit lives in us in a different way to the old testament saints. He used to come and go with those but He stays all the time with us.

johnp.

[johnP]

shiloh357

Proper hermeneutics shows us that God indirectly hardened Pharaoh's heart.

Proper hermeneutics would not change the express meaning of a passage to uphold false doctrine but dovetails the meaning into proper doctrine.

Exodus 4:21 ...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Let me explain what Exodus verse says. God says He will harden Pharaoh's heart so he will refuse God's command. God says He will harden Pharaoh's heart so that he refuses. That's what the verse says exactly.

Yet you say, "God did not cause Pharoah to sin. For you to ascribe Pharoah's sin to God is baseless and borders on heresy." Not that I said He caused Pharaoh to sin but that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh became a worse sinner.

Of course, you have an agenda, and so you must rely on supplying YOUR definitions and ignore the idea the author was intending to convey, otherwise your hollow arguments fall to dust.

I would have thought the idea that the Author was trying to get across was the fact that He, God, hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the people go. Roman's nine explains that it was to reveal God's glory and put it on display yet you do not see it. His word goes out of His mouth to accomplish His will. He hardens and softens wherever He pleases. You reject that I see.

No the Bible says that God reconciled the WORLD to himself...

You accuse me, "Proper hermeneutics', and you stick a meaning on this word 'world' that just does not bear any weight. The 'World' is a planet, the people on it and sinners as opposed to saints and saints to be.

It is used 231 times in the NIV, does it always mean the same thing?

2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

And that message is that anyone who believes will not be condemned. On that condition alone does one become reconciled with God but you say it's a done thing? Past tense?

This shows how mixed up your theology is. Salvation is a free gift that does not come to you against your will.

My will is changed by God because, "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." Rom 8:7-8. That is why we need it to be from God from first to last. Eph 2:8-9 it is given. We can't reach it ourselves. Gen 3:22 ..."The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

It is hidden from us it must be given. Even allowing for free will you still don't get it, " It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Romans 9:16. That is what you deny.

God does not save you automatically. It is something you either accept or reject. (Rom. 10:9,10) God is sovereign and His will is accomplished in the big picture, but He will save us only by our invitation, and not by force.

Rom 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Only tells us what is happening inside us not how this is acheived by God.

...and frankly you are not worth my time.

Quite frankly I find that statement an abomination.

johnp.

[Guest savedbythepassion]

Hi, John P.

I personally believe that a spiritual gift is given and received through baptism. If it is not salvation, in and of itself, it is the work of the Holy Spirit. I believe that John's baptism of repentence did spiritual work too, and he preached salvation through repentance. He foretold of a saviour, and I believe those of the OT times who repented and had a faith in God's deliverance are considered righteous in their time, as those who have since heard the Good News of Jesus Christ and believed.

[johnP]

Hello savedbythepassion.

Nice to meet you.

I personally believe that a spiritual gift is given and received through baptism.

I don't see why that should not be a way for our Father to bless us. A lot must be going on in the spiritual realm at baptisms. Heaven becoming apparent on Earth. My baptism was extrodinary to me.

If it is not salvation, in and of itself, it is the work of the Holy Spirit.

I think if a man were to be called 'son' by God just as he was being baptised then that man would believe in baptismal regeneration and be unshakable in his belief. It undoubtedly happens.

Everywhere we go we carry God around. We should be aware of this fact as we can have a profound influence on those around us. At baptism the Holy Spirit is even more so.

I believe that John's baptism of repentence did spiritual work too, and he preached salvation through repentance.

...salvation through repentance...

No but salvation through faith alone surely. John never preached salvation except it was follow Christ.

I believe that John's baptism of repentence did spiritual work too, and he preached salvation through repentance.

Apollos, Acts 18:24-onwards, shows that a great gift of teaching was given to him even though he was not baptised, except by John.

What if John's baptism can be seen as a ceremonial cleansing because; I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its Temple. Rev 21:22. People had to be outwardly clean to approach the Temple? Just a thought.

He foretold of a saviour, and I believe those of the OT times who repented and had a faith in God's deliverance are considered righteous in their time, as those who have since heard the Good News of Jesus Christ and believed.

They are as we are. All the Church saved by the blood of the Lamb. All the Church in unity, trusting our God and Saviour. The only difference being that we know how it was to be. They are Christians. JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives...

johnp.