coheir Posted May 14, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,458 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 729 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1950 Share Posted May 14, 2012 here's something to ponder.... when an animal is suffering and there is no cure, euthenasia is encouraged. but when a human is suffering and there is no cure, euthenasia is a criminal act. we can all sit here an judge euthenasia to be wrong or not wrong, but there is no scripture, IMO, that indicates that medical assistance to end one's suffering in that way is any more "wrong" than using any other medical intervention. i know that my father suffered for three years before he finally died. i don't know why God allowed him to continue living, if you could call that living. but He did allow it, and i won't question why. but.... if someone gets cancer and, for whatever reason, does not get chemotherapy or whatever other treatments are available, God allows them to suffer. if someone gets heart disease and needs a transplant but doesn't get it, God allows them to suffer. if someone gets shot and a doctor doesn't take the bullet out, God allows that person to suffer. perhaps the reason God allows a terminally ill patient to suffer is because those whom HE has given the authority to end their suffering haven't been permitted by law to do so. i'm a wuss. i hope when i die it's quick and painless. and if it can't be quick and painless, then i sure hope laws have been passed by that time to allow me to die with dignity at a time of my choosing. don't think i wouldn't consult God about it, i most certainly would. but frankly, i can't imagine my loving heavenly Father telling me "tough beans, you have to suffer a few more years." go ahead, stone me. i'm sure there is at least ONE person here who will agree with me, even if they won't admit it. Prov 31: 6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Ecc 9 2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. 3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. It is hard for us to understand many things on this earth, But as the verses above show God is being fair to all. We all get joy and pain on this earth. It may be the end of life pain is our last trial to stay faithful or turn away from God. But by being fair to all God has made it so no one can stand before him and say he was unfair to them in their life here on earth. [ quote ] i'm a wuss. i hope when i die it's quick and painless. and if it can't be quick and painless, then i sure hope laws have been passed by that time to allow me to die with dignity at a time of my choosing. don't think i wouldn't consult God about it, i most certainly would. but frankly, i can't imagine my loving heavenly Father telling me "tough beans, you have to suffer a few more years Isa 45: 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. We are suppose to pray for Gods will to be done in earth as it is in heaven. Do you think God would answer you and tell you it is ok to take your own life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 coheir, the verses you posted from Ecc really have nothing to do with the subject matter. sure, they speak of fairness, but they don't say anything about THIS. the scripture in proverb that you posted, however, could easily be seen as supporting medical intervention to hasten the end the life of one ready to die. "strong drink" (that could kill) to the one ready to perish, but only "wine" (that won't likely kill) to someone emotionally distressed. (and other scriptures elsewhere mention alcohol being used for other medical reasons.) so thank you, it actually seems you have provided scriptural support for my position! but, i won't go that far and rest my case on a single scripture. that would be silly. in fact, that would be ALMOST as silly as someone resting their case on no scripture at all, which is being done left and right in this thread. as for your question to me, do i really believe God would tell me it is ok for me to accept medical intervention to end my life if i was at the end of it, i don't know the answer. i'm not in that position. but i DO believe that he's not going to tell YOU what the answer for me would be. when and if i am ever at that point, it will be a matter between God and i. and i will listen to His voice. and it won't matter how many people on worthy think i've gone to hell, if He does not deny me the choice, i'll take it, and i'll rejoice in heaven with Him just the same. so i'm still curious as to why, when God does not address something in scripture, why does anyone else feel the need to put words in His mouth? why can't people just accept that there are some issues that are between God and the individual, and each considered by God on a case by case basis? why does everybody want to put God in a box on issues where He has not issued a blanket command to all? i'm not answering any more questions of debate in this thread. but i'll be watching with interest to see if anyone should respond to the questions i have asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted May 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2012 oh my gosh, you have a lot of nerve... not only do you pass judgment on people who disagree with your viewpoint, you judge whether or not i'm a christian Quote You need to calm down. I think this must be a very emotional subject for you. I base my conclusion on scripture, not what the rest of the world dictates and you think I have alot of nerve? YOU are the one passing judgement...your comments to me are way out of line and not even true. Where on earth do you even begin to get the idea I have judged you as to whether or not you are a Christian? Is it possible for you to be objective? I don't even know you so how would I be able to judge you? I am so awfully tired of folks claiming they are being judged when someone has a different point of view. Put on your big girl pants and stick to the subject at hand which is not judgement of anyone here, but what the thread is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted May 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted May 14, 2012 What a sensitive topic! I must say I do think there is a flaw in the argument of those who believe the only Godly course of action is to do everything humanly possible to remain alive. We all make health decisions every day, down to our diet, our decision to exercise or not, to take medications, and the more severe decisions... we make choices all the time that has real impacts on our lifespan. If we condemn people for not accepting health care that would extend their life, we also condemn those who make their own poor health choices (did you really need that slice of pizza) that shorten their expected lifespan. What about those who simply cannot afford the treatment to extend their life? Are we permitted to enter surgery knowing there is a real chance of death on the table? Because most surgery has small but real chance of death on the table. We really need to acknowledge that this is not a black and white area. I think there is a difference between active and passive choices, and I would struggle to make an active decision to end my life or help anyone else do that... but I have (with the rest of my family) made a decision to turn a life support machine off and I don't feel the slightest bit of guilt or condemnation for it. My two cents . My three cents I love my brother. He is and always has been my best friend. My parents told us that they can never, not once remember us fighting with each other from childhood. We have lived an exciting and sometimes dangerous life in pursuit of sport and the advancement of the kingdom. We have dived among 70 sharks so close we could touch them, we have braved land mines in Mozambique to spread the gospel. We have cried together and laughed together. We love each other unto death. Jesus knows that. We have an agreement. If one of us is here but no longer here - on some lonely hospital bed. We pull the plug. So sue me..... Jesus knows our hearts. And He loves us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted May 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) Can this please stop? This sort of talk causes so much anger as well as resentment. Why is it when there is a disagreement in terms of issues be they biblical or otherwise the first words that are uttered is that one is or is not a Christian.... Gentle words turn away anger....harsh ones stir it up and cause it to well up inside another. Is there no way this matter can be discussed civilly? Actually, that is pretty much the truth. When someone uses putting down a pet or any animal as an argument for ending the life of a human being they are absolutely dismissing anything scripture has to say. Abortion is pretty much accepted now, along with gay marriage and now folks want the right to help people kill themselves when the suffering is too great. or in their opinion too great I do not believe in leaving someone plugged to a machine to keep them alive...someone in a coma who is kept alive artifically needs to be let go. People getting jumping up and down upset over the euthansia do not really believe that God is actually in control....if God is soverign and omniscient and omnipresent as Christians declare, then why does a mere human being think they have the right to do God's job for Him? IMO, so many people call themselves Christian but do not even know the basics of what they purport to believe I don't think this is a grey area...like I said, please do pull the plug if a machine is the only thing keeping a heart beating....does anyone really think God does not see or know about suffering? I haven't seen an abortion thread with this much vitriole. Probably because abortion is now so common, it is used like birth control Guess what? Allow euthanasia and people who are too old or of a certain age will be put down along with deformed people or children with Down's syndrome No one has to agree with me. But the personal attacks are ridiculous...being told I am judging whether or not someone is saved is way beyond anything I wrote. I would rather be wrong than emotionally abusive to people who disagree with me. However, I don't think I am wrong. You don't have to think, whoever you may be, that you are wrong, but personal accusations seem to go hand in hand with a certain way of making decisions and I don't want any part of it. Edited May 14, 2012 by sevenseas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 oh my gosh, you have a lot of nerve... not only do you pass judgment on people who disagree with your viewpoint, you judge whether or not i'm a christian Quote You need to calm down. I think this must be a very emotional subject for you. I base my conclusion on scripture, not what the rest of the world dictates and you think I have alot of nerve? YOU are the one passing judgement...your comments to me are way out of line and not even true. Where on earth do you even begin to get the idea I have judged you as to whether or not you are a Christian? Is it possible for you to be objective? I don't even know you so how would I be able to judge you? I am so awfully tired of folks claiming they are being judged when someone has a different point of view. Put on your big girl pants and stick to the subject at hand which is not judgement of anyone here, but what the thread is about. sevenseas, i AM calm. and no, you don't base your conclusion on scripture. i've asked a dozen times in this thread for someone, ANYone, to provide me a single instance of scripture which definitively addresses the issue, and not one person, including you, has done so. my comments to you were not out of line. yours to me most definitely were. for every "idea that you have judged" i QUOTED your exact words, including the words where you judged whether or not i was a christian. you didn't specifically name me, but you directed your comment at me and said that "any christian would know" or whatever. go back and read my post, i quoted you word for word, so there is no room for you to deny it. interestingly, you can see above where the quote was to begin, but you cut it out so it could not be seen. my big girl pants have been on. your condescending attitude and condemnation of anyone who disagrees with you indicates far more about your character than i wish to explore. you have proven, at least with me, to be incapable of discussing without hurling insults. until you can discuss things maturely, i have no desire to interact with you further. even jason, as emotional as he is, has conversed more as an adult with me than you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted May 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Lets Euthanize this thread..... Or somebody is going to kill somebody... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted May 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) Lets Euthanize this thread..... Or somebody is going to kill somebody... That is probably a good idea. Edited May 14, 2012 by sevenseas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted May 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2012 my big girl pants have been on. your condescending attitude and condemnation of anyone who disagrees with you indicates far more about your character than i wish to explore. you have proven, at least with me, to be incapable of discussing without hurling insults. until you can discuss things maturely, i have no desire to interact with you further. even jason, as emotional as he is, has conversed more as an adult with me than you have. Well, when euthanasia becomes legal, you can always have me...ahem...put down There has been nothing calm or adult in your response to me. I strongly disagree with what you state and your response is to accuse me. Nice. I am not responding to you further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSinner Posted May 14, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 47 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 628 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 94 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/13/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1984 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Can this please stop? This sort of talk causes so much anger as well as resentment. Why is it when there is a disagreement in terms of issues be they biblical or otherwise the first words that are uttered is that one is or is not a Christian.... Gentle words turn away anger....harsh ones stir it up and cause it to well up inside another. Is there no way this matter can be discussed civilly? Actually, that is pretty much the truth. When someone uses putting down a pet or any animal as an argument for ending the life of a human being they are absolutely dismissing anything scripture has to say. Abortion is pretty much accepted now, along with gay marriage and now folks want the right to help people kill themselves when the suffering is too great. or in their opinion too great I do not believe in leaving someone plugged to a machine to keep them alive...someone in a coma who is kept alive artifically needs to be let go. People getting jumping up and down upset over the euthansia do not really believe that God is actually in control....if God is soverign and omniscient and omnipresent as Christians declare, then why does a mere human being think they have the right to do God's job for Him? IMO, so many people call themselves Christian but do not even know the basics of what they purport to believe I don't think this is a grey area...like I said, please do pull the plug if a machine is the only thing keeping a heart beating....does anyone really think God does not see or know about suffering? I haven't seen an abortion thread with this much vitriole. Probably because abortion is now so common, it is used like birth control Guess what? Allow euthanasia and people who are too old or of a certain age will be put down along with deformed people or children with Down's syndrome No one has to agree with me. But the personal attacks are ridiculous...being told I am judging whether or not someone is saved is way beyond anything I wrote. I would rather be wrong than emotionally abusive to people who disagree with me. However, I don't think I am wrong. You don't have to think, whoever you may be, that you are wrong, but personal accusations seem to go hand in hand with a certain way of making decisions and I don't want any part of it. I have in no way, shape or form stated I am in agreement with Euthanasia. Where do you get that idea? I have not stated it as grey area. How have I attacked you personally? All I asked was that we address this topic in a civil manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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