Atheism

[Botz]

Dear Frog.

QUOTE..Botz.. 

I suppose Atheism could be defined as blind willful acceptance of a universal lie...ie 'There is no G-d'...and the arguments used to justify this position give what little meaning is necessary to make it reasonable and valid.

I guess you disagree with what I (an atheist) define as atheism, and prefer to use your own (which is your perogative) so that you may try to ridicule it (also your perogative). However, your response above is very elucidating to me. It reveals your contempt for atheists and their "blind willful acceptance of a universal lie." I thank you for telling me how you feel.

I do not have contempt for you or any one ...regardless of their beliefs. I was just mulling over other ways of expressing what Atheism appears to be (we already saw that there is a wide band of belief amongst Atheists)...and going over a provocative collection of verses from the Bible that do not pull any punches...not because G-d wants to slam people down...but because He wants to dismantle any thoughts or ideas that a person might be tempted to believe are a viable alternative to His revealed truth. I then go on to think...why? ...and I believe it is because He wants the best for us.

QUOTE..Botz... 

and the crux of the issue is that an Atheist is gambling his life on believing the confines of his own imperfect mind and miniscule understanding of the Universe as sufficient to deny G-ds existence.

I also thank you for this part of your response. It shows me that you either have not read the link I posted regarding the false arguments used in Pascal's Wager, or have willfully disregarded the rationality of it

.

Yes of course I read what you said...and I understood the full implications of the debunking...however I felt that there was still a valid argument to be gleaned from the ashes of the argument.

QUOTE...Botz.. 

The truth of G-d has a way of bypassing our intellect (or lack of it) and touching the core of our being...and bugging us for weeks,months and years if necessary.

Empirically speaking, this has not happened to me. My intellect (or lack of it) has not been bypassed by your god. Although I am in the position of Mr. Finley who awaits such a bypass. I await it, without expecting it. It will not bug me. In the meantime, my life will continue,

Thank you for sharing your feelings.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

Well...this was just my observation and experience and understand it isn't necessarily anyone elses.

I think the picture of you passively waiting for a G-d whose existance is improbable with no expectation of Him tapping you on the shoulder is fairly amusing...It seems that G-d (if He exists) owes it to you to reveal Himself to you...and until He does you will just get on with your life.

While G-d does break into peoples lives in the most unexpected ways I believe that mostly He is found when people seek Him with all their hearts...it is a question of desire. If I want to see Mt Everest...I have to get on a plane and go to Nepal...I am unlikely to just bump into it as I wander through life.

It could be said that the level of our desire = the level of our determination.

We are prepared to spend time and effort on what motivates us most....because we obviously think that there is 'worth' to what we do.

Some might describe this as 'What makes us tick' or 'What floats our boat'.

In the great scheme of things whether G-d exists or not would be the number one priority in a persons life if they thought about it in this manner.IMHO.

Kind Regards. Botz.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear botz,

This is just my opinion. You do not have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

If I want to see Mt Everest...I have to get on a plane and go to Nepal...I am unlikely to just bump into it as I wander through life.

It could be said that the level of our desire = the level of our determination.

Oh, do not mistake me, I am very motivated to find any god if they exist. I am willing get on a plane and go wherever to find any god.

I just don't agree that I will need to suspend my rationality to determine if the evidence that god will present to me is indeed real or just my desire making me me delusional.

Just a thought,

UndecidedFrog

[Az_]

The problem atheists face is that we don't really choose what we believe. Its sort of like choosing to feel pain or not when someone kicks you. Belief is not a choice. If we believed that God and Jesus were real and divine then we could choose whether to follow them or not. But we don't God exists there for it is not a question of choice. We can no more choose to believe in God than you can choose to not believe in God.

Belief is simply the current state of your mind. The balance of experience and learning come together in your mind and form the structure of your beliefs. Imagine you taste icecream for the first time. You do not know whether you like it or not before you taste it. After you taste it you simply know whether you like it or not. Its not a choice. Its a realization.

Let us presume for a moment that God exists (this should be much easier for the people here than when I suggest this to other atheists). Does this notion of belief mean that atheists are without hope? Not according to the bible. The bible has examples of people who were skeptical and were given evidence. Yes it is suggested that faith is the prefered way to the kingdom of heaven but for some of us faith is not possible without some evidence. So that is what atheists tend to ask for is some modicum of evidence.

It is said that God provide evidence somehow violates free will. This seems false to me. Consider whether the intent is for people to guess whether God exists or not or whether the intent is to live by his words. If the choice we are faced with is whether to follow his words or not then freewill is intact even if he shows up and says hi. I still have the freewill to choose not to follow his word or not if I am shown overwhelming evidence of the truth.

Let me give an example. You find yourself standing before two doors. You are told that behind one door lies eternal happiness and love. Behind the other door lies eternal damnation and doom. Unfortunately you are not told which door is which. They are not labeled. You have no way to determine which door is which.

Now lets add some other people. These people all advocate one door over the other. None of these people have been through the doors. They have competing stories of why their choice of door is better than the other people's. Some even have stories of people way in the past that went through the doors and came back. But none of them have any convincing evidence. Its all heresay. You still have no means to make a descision.

Knowledge does not preclude freewill. It enables it. You cannot choose which door is which because you do not have any knowledge. We cannot choose to follow God because we have no knowledge of God's existance.

[ChadB]

In my version of the door thingy(yeah, I used the word thingy) Jesus Christ takes my hand and leads me through the correct door because I asked for His help. We have to seek God; He is not gonna come to us again and say HEY, LOOK AT ME I'M GOD!. Proof you ask? He has given us all the proof we need through His works, His Son, and through the creation of a complex universe. Can you honestly think that everything resulted from something other than a Creator? That, to me, is illogical. But of course I am just a human with a simple mind. I am not God and therefor can't possibly understand the workings of our Lord.

My experience with atheists is that they typically think that their mind is the ultimate tool for describing everything. What they don't know is that we can't easily put belief into words. Everything can't be explained. You have to seek Christ. I challenge you to try it, honestly and without a logical approach. Seek Him and read the bible for hope and not just for information to disprove God.

I used to attend youth group to argue scientifically why God does not make sense. I once thought Christianity was just flat out crazy talk. But I got off my high horse and decided one day to approach God with an open heart and without a negative outlook. I started attending church and reading the bible in an attempt to seek God and not disprove Him. I wanted to believe. You have to want God in order to believe. I am so very thankful that I did that. Its just like the song says...... I can remember when Christ became more than a story; more than words on a page of history.... He is the air that I breath and the water I thirst for and the ground beneath my feet. Try it....

[Az_]

I am merely offering the position most atheists find themself in. I am not attempting to engage in a theological debate.

I will simply ask is God willing to stand by and allow people to be damned for all eternity simply because he chose not to introduce himself? Thomas asked Jesus for evidence of his return. It was given to him. Why should this not be a hope for any others that need evidence to believe a thing?

I have known far to many other belief systems that you would chide as being silly or delusional. And yet its adherants had the same faith and conviction that you demonstrate. They too insist that you have to believe to see. I have seen grown men bumping around on their butts because they believed they were flying (transendentalists). I have seen people willing to die for their beliefs. I have met people willing to kill for their beliefs. Strength of conviction hardly seems a valid means of determining who is right.

Thus I stand before the doors. A meriad of people calling out that their door is the right one. All of them with the same sense of urgency. All sinscere. I would love to be able to choose a door. But I simply do not have enough information. One wonders if the intent of the doors was to torment rather than to get people to choose the right door. For if it is not made clear which door is which then there is no choice.

[Orr v'emet]

I will simply ask is God willing to stand by and allow people to be damned for all eternity simply because he chose not to introduce himself? Thomas asked Jesus for evidence of his return. It was given to him. Why should this not be a hope for any others that need evidence to believe a thing?

Is there an answer that would satisfy? What proof needs to be made before you will believe God exists? (I hope you know I'm not trying to be a brat, just trying to understand )

[Az_]

Is there an answer that would satisfy? What proof needs to be made before you will believe God exists? (I hope you know I'm not trying to be a brat, just trying to understand  )

No I don't think you are being a brat. Our two sides of this matter do not openly talk very often. We likely have a great many misunderstandings about each other. Thats why I am here. To try to learn and inform.

Atheists are not looking for proof. Proof is a much abused word and doesn't deserve half the trouble it gets. Rather what atheists seek is evidence. The best example I can provide is the story of doubting Thomas. When Jesus rose and came back Thomas doubted it was true. He asked for evidence. Jesus admonished him that those who believe in faith are blessed but he gave Thomas permission to examine the wounds for himself. His skepticism satisfied he was able to procede in the belief that it really was Jesus risen from the dead.

This is the conundrum before us. The intent of the bible seems to be that the point is to choose to live your life according to the laws of God. Knowledge of God's existance seems critical to this goal. It seems a rather dubious test to expect everyone to guess which God if any is the right god. There are so many ways that God could provide evidence of his existance on a continuing basis and leave freewill intact. And yet none of this occurrs.

I am not trying to argue the nonexistance of God here. I want to spell this out because my intent is to find ties between our sides instead of conflicts. But in order to do this it is necissary to explain some of the reasoning of the other side. We may not share the same beliefs but we do share the same world. We cannot turn a blind eye to each other in the hopes that we will each go away. Thus if asked why I have a position I will do my best to explain it. It is not intended as a means of trying to sway you. Just an attempt to help you understand me and others like me.

[Orr v'emet]

There are so many ways that God could provide evidence of his existance on a continuing basis and leave freewill intact. And yet none of this occurrs

What ways might He do this? His children testify, archeology and history confirm things from the bible...I guess I see the evidence but do you not see it or is it that athiests don't see the evidence in what we see?

[Az_]

What ways might He do this? His children testify, archeology and history confirm things from the bible...I guess I see the evidence but do you not see it or is it that athiests don't see the evidence in what we see?

As I mentioned there are other faiths and beliefs that testify with equal fervor to Christians. This is no basis to find evidence in. As to archeological evidence there are two problems. The first is that there are varying views on the evidence and many suggest that it is pointing in the opposite direction. Second and more important is that even if the archeological evidence were valid it would be like claiming that the discovery of the Mississippi river proved that Tom Sawyer was real. Stories can be written about people in real places. Explanations for events can be fictionalized. Thus archeological evidence does not meet the level of evidence required.

The trouble atheists have is the universe behaves exactly the way one would expect a world without an active God would behave. There is no active evidence of a being working the controls of the universe.

Just off the top of my head I can imagine a number of ways God could have demonstrated his existance in ways that would really take a concerted effort to deny. He could have carved his name in every language on the moon. He could appear daily before us. He could stop by and say Hi every once in a while to both believers and nonbelievers alike in a clearly visible and convincing manner.

Choice and freewill would still be intact. We would still be free to choose whether to follow his word. The issue of believing one faith over another would be eliminated. If you believe that Satan is an active force trying to decieve so many in the world imagine how much trouble an active God showing up and talking to those that fall off the track would cause his efforts.

Consider this. The story of Adam and Eve had Adam conversing with God directly. He didn't need anyone to tell him about God. God was simply someone he could talk with. He didn't need faith to find him. He just needed to be.

All atheists need to find their way to God is some credible evidence (in their mind not yours) that he exists. You believe already. You believe so strongly that when presented with evidence and methods from the world that seem to suggest that God does not exist or the bible is wrong you decide that the evidence or methodology must be wrong. We do not have that luxury. We can only follow what we find to be the best path to the truth we can discern. And without evidence God is not part of that path.

I do understand that your concern for us is real. I do believe that your passion is real. I just don't happen to believe that God is real. If you happen to know a way that a skeptic can find evidence that God is real then that is the path you need to take to convince me. Barring that we need to find a way for us to coexist in this world as neither of us are going anywhere for some time.

[Orr v'emet]

If you happen to know a way that a skeptic can find evidence that God is real then that is the path you need to take to convince me.

Believe me Az, I wish I knew what path to take to try to convince you, my heart aches for it. I realize however that it will be God alone who convinces you, I only long to point you in His direction. I wonder now though, does it ever cease to become a head matter and become a heart matter? My heart convinced me God was real long before my head did.