Immortality of the Soul?

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Hi everyone, I am a newcommer here.

I have a question for everyone.

Who believes in the direct essention to Heaven/Hell after death (ie. Immortality of the soul)

If you do believe this, then what is the point of the ressurection that paul talks about in 1Corth15?

Think about it, if you die and then immiditaly are jugded (either go to heaven or hell) then what is the point of CHrist's return to judge everyone else again?

Please provide scritpure and I'll get back to you with mine.

I believe (and put my hope in) THe ressureciton from the dead, and not the immortality of the soul.

Thanks!

[larryt]

Hi everyone, I am a newcommer here.

I have a question for everyone.

Who believes in the direct essention to Heaven/Hell after death (ie. Immortality of the soul)

If you do believe this, then what is the point of the ressurection that paul talks about in 1Corth15?

Think about it, if you die and then immiditaly are jugded (either go to heaven or hell) then what is the point of CHrist's return to judge everyone else again?

Please provide scritpure and I'll get back to you with mine.

I believe (and put my hope in) THe ressureciton from the dead, and not the immortality of the soul.

Thanks!

Hi Skillet

Welcome to Worthy Boards.

Forgive me for being blunt: Are you Jehovah's Witness?

LT

[Leonard]

Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

"Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God. Ye do therefore greatly err." (Mk. 12:24 also cff)

Here Jesus affirms that centuries after their deaths, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are all STILL LIVING. Were their bodies alive? Certainly not, their tombs were in known places and could be inspected. Their bodies were quite dead.

Yet Jesus affirms these worthy gentlemen (pun definitely intended), to be living. If then, their bodies are demonstrably not living, what part of them was Jesus referring to as being alive?

We are forced ineluctably to affirm the immortality of the soul.

With a blessing,

Leonard, a sinner

[larryt]

Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

"Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God. Ye do therefore greatly err." (Mk. 12:24 also cff)

Here Jesus affirms that centuries after their deaths, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are all STILL LIVING. Were their bodies alive? Certainly not, their tombs were in known places and could be inspected. Their bodies were quite dead.

Yet Jesus affirms these worthy gentlemen (pun definitely intended), to be living. If then, their bodies are demonstrably not living, what part of them was Jesus referring to as being alive?

We are forced ineluctably to affirm the immortality of the soul.

With a blessing,

Leonard, a sinner

Amen

LT

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Hi guys, let me clear up a few things please,

To answer the question, I'm not a Jehova's Witness, just a bible student.

secodly you only quoted a scritprue in mark that I believe is a bit out of context for your argument, please see next post after this one.

To support my belief:

Firstly Paul tells us,

1 Cor. 15:12-14

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? [13] But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. [14] And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

It is clear that the ressurection is our hope, otherwise your preaching is in vain

Secondly Christ states:

John 6:40

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

What is the point of this if Christ didn't mean it.

Thirdly the soul is quite mortal and will die

Joshua 10:29-30

Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: [30] And the Lord delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Jeremiah 2:34

Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these.

Ezekiel 18:4

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The bible is clear about what the soul is and this is further proven by the ACTUAL DEFINITION of the word "soul" in strongs concordance

nephesh, Hebrew 5315, Strong

Edited October 16, 2004 by SkilletRocksMyFace

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

let me post the mark verse in CONTEXT:

Mark 12:23-27

In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife."

[24] Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? [25] For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. [26] And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? [27] He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."

Here the deciples are talking about the ressuection and so is Christ! Jesus tells us that "for when the rise form the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marrige" That is the reason they are "wrong" not becauase the believe in the ressurection. Paul teaches it and Christ teaches it. Reread the passage in context please

Thanks for your posts, good discusion.

Edited October 16, 2004 by SkilletRocksMyFace

[Katholish]

I just thought that I would bring in a Catholic perspective to this question.

There is a Particular Judgment and a General Judgment.

From Scriptural evidence, we know that there is a Judgment at the End of the World after the Second Coming of Christ, and the resurrection of the dead. Right? That is the General Judgment.

However, we also know from Scriptural evidence that a person's fate is decided before the General Judgment. As soon as a person dies, they are judged immediately (the Particular Judgment is also called the Immediate Judgment). For instance, Christ's parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, clearly they had been judged, Lazarus going to the Bosom of Abramham, being saved, the Rich man being reprobate, yet they must have been judged before the General Judgment at the end of the world for the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers on earth that they may not share his doomed fate. There is also the Good Theif whom Christ promised would be in Paradise that very day.

St. Augustine, De Amina et Ejus Origine, Book 2, Chapter 8:

Now with regard to the point, which with perfect propriety and great soundness of view he believes, that souls after quitting the body are judged, before they come to that final judgment to which they must submit when their bodies are restored to them, and are either tormented or glorified in the very same flesh wherein they once lived here on earth; is it, let me ask you, the case that you were really ignorant of this? Who ever had his mind so obstinately set against the gospel as not to hear these truths, and after hearing to believe them, in the parable of the poor man who was carried away after death to Abraham's bosom, and of the rich man who is set forth as suffering torment in hell?

Anticipating the next logical question of "Why is there a need for the General Judgment if the soul's fate is already decided?", I can answer that the General Judgment extends the Particular Judgment to the risen bodies of men, as well has make public every sin, even the secret sins of the saints.

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Article VII:

Reasons For General Judgment

It is necessary to show why, besides the particular judgment of each individual, a general one should also be passed upon all men.

Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate their conduct, dependents, followers and others who admire and advocate their example, language and actions. Now by all these circumstances the rewards or punishments of the dead must needs be increased, since the good or bad influence of example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with the end of the world. Justice demands that in order to form a proper estimate of all these good or bad actions and words a thorough investigation should be made. This, however, could not be without a general judgment of all men.

Moreover, as the character of the virtuous frequently suffers from misrepresentation, while that of the wicked obtains the commendation of virtue, the justice of God demands that the former recover, in the public assembly and judgment of all men, the good name of which they had been unjustly deprived before men.

Again, as the just and the wicked performed their good and evil actions in this life not without the cooperation of the body, it necessarily follows that these actions belong also to the body as to their instrument. It was, therefore, altogether suitable that the body should share with the soul the due rewards of eternal glory or punishment. But this can only be accomplished by means of a general resurrection and of a general judgment.

Next, it is important to prove that in prosperity and adversity, which are sometimes the promiscuous lot of the good and of the bad, everything is done and ordered by an all*wise and all*just Providence. It was, therefore, necessary not only that rewards should await the just and punishments the wicked, in the life to come, but that they should be awarded by a public and general judgment. Thus they will become better known and will be rendered more conspicuous to all; and in atonement for the unwarranted murmurings, to which on seeing the wicked abound in wealth and flourish in honours even the Saints themselves, as men, have sometimes given expression, a tribute of praise will be offered by all to the justice and Providence of God. My feet, says the Prophet, were almost moved, my steps had well nigh slipped, because I had a zeal on occasion of the wicked, seeing the prosperity of sinners; and a little after: Behold! these are sinners and yet abounding in the world, they have obtained riches; and I said, Then have I in vain justified my heart, and washed my hands among the innocent; and I have been scourged all the day, and my chastisement hath been in the morning. This has been the frequent complaint of many, and a general judgment is therefore necessary, lest perhaps men may be tempted to say that God walketh about the poles of heaven, and regards not the earth.

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Thank you for your insight.

I politly disagree with the proof of "Abraham's bosom" though simpley because it is a parable, and is not literal. Christ's parables are used as anologies to help teach someting correctly or show something incorrectly. For example the parable of the mustard seed...faith is not really a mustard seed, however it is something that can start very small and grow to be HUGE. However faith is not literaly a mustard seed.

So too is Abrahams bossom. The context in which Christ is speaking is against the pharasies (and Saducees who don't believe the ressurection) and he is talking about the hellinestic jews who believe some of the greek teachings. What Christ is doing is using a parable (the anology) that if the hellentic jews beleived correctly (again saducies dont believe ressurection) then this is what would happen (abrahms bossom), however Christ goes on to say that He will "raise them up at the last day"

scirpturaly:

How could Lazarus go literally to Abraham's bosom? Abraham (as now) was unquestionably dead and without his reward. (Heb. 11:8, 13, 39, 40).

Hebrews 11:8

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:13

These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39-40

And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [40] since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

I wouldn't take this parable or any parable literally.

Christ does teach the ressurection clearly and indeed he has "gone to prepare a place for us"

Thanks for the posts, keep it up.

Edited October 16, 2004 by SkilletRocksMyFace

[Old Timer]

At the expected objection of most Christians I will agree with Skillet.

True,

[larryt]

Hi Skillet,

Would you define "death" please? And any other important terms so we can all talk about the same thing. The reason I asked if you were JW is they believe in the cessation of the soul upon the death of the body, and recreation at the resurection.

Keep in mind that all scripture must fit with ALL other parts of scripture.

LT