Immortality of the Soul?

[larryt]

I'll answer your other quesiton in a little bit,

however I can garontee you right now you can and will sin in the next 48hours.

I too am a new creation in Christ, but you still will commit sin, it is our nature to do so.

Will you swear? Will you cheat? Will you lust after a woman, I garontee you that it will happen even after you are a new creation. My scripture was in context...yours wasnt...

peace,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi skillet,

The old man is the man of the flesh and cannot stop sinning but the new man is sealed by the Spirit of God and cannot sin.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

LT

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Yeah okay, funny you should qoute that, it pretty much defines plus supports my argument. THe ressurection, read context:

1 Cor. 15:42-44 (ESV)

So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. [43] It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

The context of your passage states this ABOUT THE RESSURECTION so when we are sown natural, at the ressurection (not before) we will be sown spiritually.

Please get the context of your scripture (we've been through this before)

Even if somehow that did support what you are saying, it doens't make sense. We are born into Christ through baptism (Rom6) we put off the old man (that is good) but when I was baptized I didn't immiatly put on the immortal spiritaul body (I'm still living and the same flesh I was) I just was "washed clean" and adopted into the hope of the ressurection. It has nothing to do with my "spiritual body" because non of us have yet recieved it (because the ressurection hasn't happened yet)

Peace.

[Trinity]

2 Corinthians 5

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6

Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

Case closed! To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If your died a Christian You will be in heaven.

[borntorebel]

Well, again I must say "Ye do greatly err, because ye know not the Scriptures, neither the power of God."

Edited November 2, 2004 by borntorebel

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Trinity, welcome to this thread, glad to see your post.

However lets not close the case so fast! Man if you're gong to just dismiss everythign else and take 2 verses to conclude something, I'm going to suggest slowing down and take a closer look at the whole of scritpure before making your conclusion:

Firstly, just like with larry, you need to get the context strieght. Stop trying to just quote verses as proof without first finding out the context:

2 Cor. 5:4-10

For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened--not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. [5] He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

[6] So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, [7] for we walk by faith, not by sight. [8] Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. [9] So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. [10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Firstly, vrs 8 states "we would rather be" you mis quote it by saying "we are with the lord when absent from the body" It never said that, you just tried to make it say that. For the context of Vrs 10 proves the timing, "when we all must appear before the judgment seat of CHrist" and when will that take place?

At Christ's return (scritpure already shown)

Sceondly, verse 4 states the tent as our bodies which we are groaning for, furhter examplified by Pual in WAITING for the redemption of the body

Romans 8:23

And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

And again, when does the redemptions of our bodies come? CHrist's return

Philip. 3:20-21

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, [21] who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

1 Thes. 4:14-17

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [15] For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Lets not forget 1Cor15:50-54

What do you think pual believes in? THe ressurection or immortal souls?

1 Cor. 15:12-14

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? [13] But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. [14] And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

Lets see you answer that please.

peace

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

WEll no one has posted here for a while so I just wanted to throw this scritpure out there as proof of Paul's belief in the ressurection of the body, not that he is already perfect (even if he is baptized) but that he has to wait for the second comming:

Philip. 3:11-12

that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

[12] Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

[borntorebel]

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O hades, where is thy victory?'" 1 Cor. 15:52-55.

Here in God's word, it tell sus that at the last trump, we shall put on immortality. Now determining exactly when the last trump is would start an entirely new post. Suffice it to say, we know it happens in Revelation, which occurs at the end of this age. So this means nobody has immortality until that time. When we die, we die. Our spirit returns to God, and our bodies return to the dust. Also;

"Who only hath immortality..." 1 Tim. 6:16. This scripture tells us that only God and Jesus have immortality. That means we don't. Right now, nobody is in heaven and nobody is in hell, since it doesn't exist. Every single person who has died (and all people who have been born since Adam and Eve are dead) is in the grave (hades). They have returned to the dust from which they came, and their spirit has returned to God from which it came.

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

[borntorebel]

Sacha says,

Paul writting In Philippians:

"For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain ... I desire to depart andbe with Christ  which is better by far.... )1:21/23)

(I  mean if, according to Paul,  to live in this body 'is Christ',  how can dying be 'gain' , if we do not actually go to be with Him . ..?)

To live is Christ, meaning that Paul can continue to preach Christ and do His work in the earth. When Paul dies, it will seem like an instant, a twinkling of an eye that he will be ressurected to be with Jesus. It is better for a christian to be with God and Jesus than to contend with this fleshly vessel. When one dies, one can no longer preach Christ.

Or in 2 Cor 5:6

"As long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord... we are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

And Jesus' word to the  sinner on the cross: " I tell you this day you will be with me in paradise." Like 23:43

I take these passages literally to mean that when I die my spirit will go to be with Jesus in Heaven. 

The bible doesn't tell us that when we die we go to heaven. God tells us that when we die, our body returns to dust (Gen. 3), and our spirit returns to Him (Ps. 104:24-30). When one dies, they know nothing (Ecc. 9:5-6, 10). This fits with the Greek word 'hades' which means unseen or imperceptible. One can't sense or feel or know or have wisdom in the grave (sheol/hades) Thus, when the dead are raised at the end of this age, it will seem to those who are dead that it was in an instant, a twinkling of an eye. Now, that may not line up with your theology, but it's what scripture says. Not everything in the bible is literal Sacha.

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

[borntorebel]

Savedbythepassion says,

It is my underestanding that Sheol and Hades are equivalent and represent the place where the soul goes after death. It is erroneously translated "Hell" in many English Bibles. Souls of the righteous and unrighteous proceeded to Hades before the fulfillment of the Christ covenenant (Jesus suffering, death and resurrection). After the fulfillment of the Christ covenant, the souls of the righteous in Christ proceed directly to Heaven to be with God the triune and await the resurrection of their perfected physical bodies with Christ's second coming.

Actually, the meaning of hades is unseen or imperceptible. The closest word to that in the English language is 'grave'. The reason it is also translated into the English word 'hell' is because when the 1611 KJ was written, 'hell' meant to conceal, to cover. There was an olde English saying that people would "put their potatoes in hell" for the winter, meaning they would bury them. Once again, when we die, our spirits go to God, who created them, and our bodies and soul return to the dust from which they came. If what you say is true SBTP, then people have to die twice. Show me a scripture that says when we die we go to heaven. And sorry, Jesus statement to the thief isn't one to use, Jesus said "I tell you this day, you will be with me in paradise." It wasn't meaning that very day, but that Jesus was telling him that day.

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

[borntorebel]

What I understand is that the word Paradise was used interchangebly in the Scripture with Abraham's Bosom. It is the third level of heaven (the Hebrew scholars defining seven levels of heaven). This level corresponds to Sheol/Hades where Christ went to preach to the disobedient spirits while his body was in the grave:

Can you show me in scripture where paradise and Abraham's bosom are used interchangeably?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

Ephesians 4:7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." 9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Jesus' spirit went to Hades and he proclaimed his victory to come and at his ascension he led the righteous captive's souls in captivity out of Hades into the presence of God in highest heaven. The unrighteous souls remain in Hades to await the second coming of Christ and the final judgement.

Where does it say in this passage from 1 Peter that Jesus went to hades?

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron