Joyce Meyer

[Botz]

Zemke

Jesus needed to be tortured in hell for three days to complete the atonement proses.

Jesus did go to hell, and preached to the prisoners there. He brought them out of the gave. Since your judging someone that has helped millions, could you provide the scripture that says he had to Atone for anything, and one that says he was tortured.

Could you provide the document or link to where Joyce actually said Jesus was tortured in Hell? Are you just making that up? What devil could possibly touch Jesus, the scripture says while there he removed all authority from the devil. He made a way where the devil can no longer just destroy us.

What scripture was refereed to was this.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Jesus was MADE sin. He had to be because he never sin. Every sin was put on him. He also bore our sickness and disease. All these thoughts based on scriptures and reading the scriptures in a simple way.

If you want the spin doctor version....... Jesus outside of time, bla, bla.. and different translations used to prove different points, with some Greek thrown in. You can Google that. I'll stick with the KJV and believe what it says.

Joyce just quoted the scriptures. She never said Jesus was tortured as you claim. His Holy one did not see any corruptions, you made that up to put down someone you know nothing about.

One is solid ground and the other a set up for swaying with any wind of doctrine.

how about lying and misquoting someone? That count?

Jesus Is Lord.

Let me help out a little here.....

There are some in the WoF movement that go beyond what is acceptable in their teaching, and some move into the heretical zone, especially regarding the 'atonement'.

There is a very good and fair book written by Robert Bowman called 'The Word-Faith Controversy' that tackles some of the issues in a very gracious manner...he is not

what one might call a 'heresy hunter'..and distances himself from some of those that condemn the movement as a whole....but he does show how a couple of the leaders

in the movement are promoting heretical doctrines, especially Kenneth Copeland.

I am sure much of what Joyce Meyer has taught has been beneficial, challenging and uplifting to many people...but from what I see and read she has embraced some of

the potentially disasterous teachings that are found in WoF...especially surrounding the atonement.

Check out this web-site as it quotes fairly extensively and gives a flavour of her more controversial beliefs without trying to cherry-pick out of context....at the very least

it demonstrates that not everything she teaches is biblically based, and in some sense she sets herself up as having special revelation.

https://craigbrownsr...e-and-heresy/

I do not personally recommend this web-site or necessarily agree with everything on it...but it gives a flavour of what the problems/issues are.

[Zemke]

Zemke

Jesus needed to be tortured in hell for three days to complete the atonement proses.

Jesus did go to hell, and preached to the prisoners there. He brought them out of the gave. Since your judging someone that has helped millions, could you provide the scripture that says he had to Atone for anything, and one that says he was tortured.

Could you provide the document or link to where Joyce actually said Jesus was tortured in Hell? Are you just making that up? What devil could possibly touch Jesus, the scripture says while there he removed all authority from the devil. He made a way where the devil can no longer just destroy us.

What scripture was refereed to was this.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Jesus was MADE sin. He had to be because he never sin. Every sin was put on him. He also bore our sickness and disease. All these thoughts based on scriptures and reading the scriptures in a simple way.

If you want the spin doctor version....... Jesus outside of time, bla, bla.. and different translations used to prove different points, with some Greek thrown in. You can Google that. I'll stick with the KJV and believe what it says.

Joyce just quoted the scriptures. She never said Jesus was tortured as you claim. His Holy one did not see any corruptions, you made that up to put down someone you know nothing about.

One is solid ground and the other a set up for swaying with any wind of doctrine.

how about lying and misquoting someone? That count?

Jesus Is Lord.

I'm not making this up. These things have been written for years. You accuse me of attacking someone when my intention is more in the form of caution and a warning. Not out of malice but love. We live in dangerous times and there is nothing wrong with checking what a leader actually believes. Acts 17:11

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

I have never posted links. All you have to do is goggle her and look for sights refuting her doctrine and you will find quotes from her books, her own words, and statements from interviews. There are heresy hunter types out there and they can become just as bad. But we do need to be careful and it is good to be warned.

[Zemke]

I'm not computer savy. This is the most I use a computer, when I'm on this board.

Emails

photo-brochures-business-printing

now and then searching something.

That's about it. My first reasons for coming on this sight was to simply practice writing out thoughts. You know, getting better at communication via the typed word. Something I've never really been good doing. A bit surprised I'm still hanging. I figured I wouldn't get past 100 posts. But I'm learning from gleaning the posts and it is a place to pick up on some news.

Thank you for the link Botz.

[Fez]

Her book "Spiritual Warfare" pulled me out of a dark place. I was still a "young" Christian and I guess you could say that I would have read anything, and thought it was good.

But now I am old, and battered and bent, and weather-beaten, and the good ship Fez has run aground on the rocks of the world more than once.

So I am a survivor, and more seasoned for the journey.

And I would read the book again....

[enoob57]

what is the practical problem she is dealing with? Is it simply that "it is more blessed to give than to recieve?" That's true enough. I think I just heard that validated in a PBS news item of all places!

All the same, I'm just wondering if that's one of her strong points after "years of listening to her." If so, I just have a 40 day suggestion for you. Just disappear from as much contact with anyone as you can, and immerse in Luke, Acts and Romans for 40 days, and see what you are like. I hope you will hurt, wretch, stretch, scream, and shout "against the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight" (--Cockburn).

--Inter

It is a good thing you agree with it!

Ac 20:35

35 I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak.

And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

NKJV

Love, Steven

[Zemke]

Zemke

You need to warn? I gave you the scriptural context by which She stated that Jesus Went to hell, took Captive, Captive, and brought many out with him. That is what she said.

I posted the scripture that believe is based on.

That is a far cry from Jesus being tortured in Hell. Jesus had to atone for sin. Joyce never said that, the scripture says he was made sin, not that he had to be punished in Hell for a period of time. That is scripture. He went to hell, being made sin, he trashed all demonic power in Hell, took his people up out of there.

Does that sound like some poor person being tortured? Sounds like our Lord taking care of business to me.

You failed to provide a quote from Joyce (There are none) backing your false accusations. Are you OK with that Zemeke? You have several post of people who Joyce has helped, and you make up bad stuff about her? Is that really OK? I am not trying to put you down, but protect you. Do we publicly falsely accuse one of God's anointed? If you can't back your statement, then why make it? I am pretty sure that it's not OK with God if someone were to just make things up about you, and start posting it.

I have never posted links. All you have to do is goggle her and look for sights refuting her doctrine and you will find quotes from her books, her own words, and statements from interviews.

That is why I am calling this for what it is. She never once said Jesus was tortured in Hell. I went through 4 pages of articles, I checked. Knowing Joyce though, I knew she never said that. I knew ignorant people who have no life, and are doing nothing for the Lord are the ones who accuse falsely. She never said what you accused her of.

BOTZ:

WOF? So, a black man steals, and that must mean all black men steal? Word of Faith teaches scripture in a different point of view than your traditional baptist. (Sometimes)

Joyce never said Jesus was tortured. She quoted "Had the price of the earth known, he would have never crucified the Lord of Glory." She had taken that, and in her mind it meant something very powerful and emotional to her. The Lord took her place, so she would not have to go to hell. She added what she envisioned, which none of us logical people would never think of doing? Right?

Scripture says God put Jesus to grief, He offered the Lord's soul for a sin offering. He sent Jesus to hell and Made him sin. I am pretty sure that was not very Pleasant. The scripture says that he will not leave Jesus In hell, and will not see his Holy one be corrupted.

I am not sure what the means.............. Joyce took it to mean that the devils thought they had him being ignorant of what they had done by killing him, and BAM they realized the made a terrible mistake.

That is scripture, not the way I tell it, but I certainly would never humiliate someone that did read the Word, and believed it as written.

My version is that Jesus went to Hell, kicked the devil's butt, and stripped him of all authority. That is also scripture. My version is a little more violent on the Lord's part. The scripture said he was made lower than the angels. Not that he was, but Made. You better believe he is not made that way anymore. That means the angelic class was given some type of authority over him. Was that in hell? I don't know. That is scripture though.

So what about WOF BOTZ? I have listened to Kenneth Copeland for years. The man is 75 years old, still flys a jet, travels all over the world, keeps a tight TV schedule. Do you not notice those that live their life wrong get removed from ministry? That is scripture. The wicked will not live their full days, nor will the Lord Bless them. 35 years of ministry, and Brother Copeland canceled one meeting. He disobeyed God about his back, and it cost him. 35 years Bots, not one sick day, being somewhere everyday.

It does not take a genius to know the man is protected and blessed of the Lord.

So what is the difference? WOF takes a stance that if God said, we believe it, and that settles it. That is all WOF is. God is on our side, He is never the cause of the issue. If Jesus said nothing by any means shall hurt you, then we are told to believe him over the 10,000 that died. Believe the Word, not the World around you.

When in Prison, I was looking for answers, and getting every book I could get my hands on. It was ministries like Copeland, Meyers, Duplantis, and Hagin that you could write, and they send you anything you asked for free. They were there when I needed the help the most. I had a locker full of books and tapes.

So, I may not agree with lots of that Baptist teaching. I don't like Calvinism. That don't mean I am speaking bad of anyone. It does not mean I am starting a web page and spout off all the evils of this persons doctrine. Is that really what we are suppose to do?

We must warn everyone, because everyone is so stupid and might follow the wrong thing!!!!!

It's written that their Lord is able to make them stand, not me.............

You have several people that say Joyce has helped them here, is it really Cool Botz to put down the person after so many other believers said they have been helped? Is that the best thing to do? Really?

Jesus Is Lord.

Once again I am not making these things up. I am fine with what I wrote. I said I knew she used to preach the word faith stuff and gave an idea about what they preach. I never did quote Joyce Meyer. Your response is a bit emotional and conversation gets useless fast in that situation.

Botz put a up a link to read. These are things I was taught years ago and as I said in my post I do not know where she stands today. But this isn't splitting hairs. We are talking about the Gospel. Highly important in ones beliefs. This has nothing to do about helping people. Motivational speakers help hundreds of thousands every day. The issue is the gospel.

[Sevenseas]

Don't get me started on Kenneth Copeland....brrrrr!

[Sevenseas]

sorry to bug you in this thread too Mike, but with regards to:

For had the devil known, he never would have pulled such a stunt.

it was God's plan all along and we know that Jesus gave up His life...He said "It is finished", so, do we conclude that the devil might/could

have prevented the cross, or has God made the waster to destroy to fulfill His larger plans?

"See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

Isaiah 54:16

I would not fault anyone using the scripture and describing it that way. Personal revelation can be greater

Personal revelation can be greater than________________please fill in the blanks

He certainly was not concerned about any physical abuse before the cross, he minded spiritual things.

Aww come on, don't make me take this on...just what happened in the garden then, where He literally BEGGED His father

to 'let this cup pass if it be possible" plus, the Bible tells us that Jesus despised the shame....are you trying to state it was

all just spiritual? Cause, if that were the case, why didn't Jesus just engage the devil Spirit to spirit?

Could it be because he suffered for us and had to become flesh in order to do so? But wait, that would mean it was

more than spiritual...oh help me. Getting confusededed again

It's those that twist words and make stuff up that claim that was said. This is my issue with people and judging others. Nobody is perfect in revelation though. When I become perfect in understanding, then I will judge.

I dunno................. this cannot all be subjective or there would never be any discernment...or is that judging too?

Copeland breaks it down word for word.

Even Joel Osteen who was shredded by those that claim to be saved. Joel won't put anyone in hell, just refuses

well he couldn't even if he wanted to.

To be honest, I don't even think it occurs to Joel they might go to Hell, he just don't think that way.

he probably doesn't think he will either. Just think nice thoughts..........yoo hoo....Mr. Marley, how does that song go again?

[Sevenseas]

WoW!!! I knew she could not be silent. Just waiting to pounce

I'll throw the book at you! waiting? hardly......

He does have a purpose, but it was not suppose to be so.

ah yes.....but God says HE created the destroyer to destroy...does not sound like plan b? ?

you say the evil slay the wicked, however God says He will destroy them...Further, the evil slay the good quite readily

am I misunderstanding your point?

God never created junk. Iniquity was "FOUND" in the devil. It was not always so. God never made one thing to fail.

What if we don't see things like God does? What if what we call failure is really part of a bigger plan and meant to be so?

I'm serious now, not difficult....

Joseph stated you (his brothers) meant it for evil, but God meant if for good. Indicating God meant for what happened to

Joseph to happen...He did not just turn bad circumstances into good ones....I think what and who we are inside is brought

to the surface in the trying times...which of course ties in with silver being refined in the furnace...but then, God is the potter

and shall the pot tell the potter how to mold him? But then we have free choice and on it goes....if we put ourselves into the

hands of God, then I suppose that is free choice because not everyone actually and really does that

At any rate, the devil's fate was sealed before Christ descended....but I won't add to that scripture other than that it also says

he did preach to the prisoners...this is something that is not gone into in detail, and it is xcrossing the line to TEACH more...

think about it, ask about it, but say you KNOW more when scripture does not say more? not kosher

I am convinced that God has explained less than more and He does say that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts

Then there is the fact that our brains use so little of what they are capable of ... but I guess that is another thread...although

to be sure, some of us use more than others....but I don't want to go new age here but that is not the xplanation I am thinking of

I never listen to Benny Hinn. I would never speak ill of him though.

So do you let error slide? That has nothing to do with speaking ill of the person. Scripture definitively tells us to examine and

to discern. You cannot say 'ahem' somewhere along the line if you don't...the Bereans were applauded for examining the

scriptures to see if whether what they were taught was true or not. When anyone crosses the line, the error needs to be

pointed out. Benny Hinn talks to the Holy Spirit all day long apparently, and i would like to know where in the Bible that is

encouraged....not to mention cursing those he feels are against his ministry...curse those who curse you or who you think curse

you? anyway, I obviously don't get along with him either...

personal revelation can be greater than other people's revelation?

Any revelation outside of scripture is not objective.

Even Paul will stop and say, now this is not the Lord, but just my opinion. I believe a person can come to greater revelation of God through

Christ, through the scriptures but I do not believe it is correct to state that person a, b or z has a new revelation OUTSIDE of the Bible

ie: well now God has revealed something to me that no one else knows and here it is...........like God's favorite color ... His favorite

color is blue! So I wear blue almost always now. She was serious. I started thinking she was a kook. I thought His favorite color

was rainbow.......

That upset me.

yeah well, IMO, that is really a giant case of the pot calling the kettle black .

I am not sure I would call it "Begging"

Well I called it begging. This is what scripture states: Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.^c

He was in anguish while he prayed, so he prayed more earnestly. and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the groun

That, is not just spiritual. Jesus prayed for another way if possible, for the redemption of human beings. But, as Hebrews

states, he suffered so we would have someone who really understood...ie able to sympathize as Hebrews informs us

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way,

just as we are--yet was without sin. Heb 4:15

I have no problem with preaching what scripture states. It is the conjecture and the personal opinions that are presented to those who

just do not examine the word (like they are supposed to) that I have the right to judge...I can judge that what is presented is not scriptural

It is not truth...it is erroneous and in many cases, well supplied with itchy ears.

[Botz]

WOF? So, a black man steals, and that must mean all black men steal? Word of Faith teaches scripture in a different point of view than your traditional baptist. (Sometimes)

Poor analogy bro...and I did not condemn the whole of WoF as you make out....also I belong to a WoF congregation where our Pastor is an avid supporter of KCM.

Joyce never said Jesus was tortured. She quoted "Had the price of the earth known, he would have never crucified the Lord of Glory." She had taken that, and in her mind it meant something very powerful and emotional to her. The Lord took her place, so she would not have to go to hell. She added what she envisioned, which none of us logical people would never think of doing? Right?

I have no beef whatsoever with inspired guess-work...but some people don't know the difference.

Scripture says God put Jesus to grief, He offered the Lord's soul for a sin offering. He sent Jesus to hell and Made him sin. I am pretty sure that was not very Pleasant. The scripture says that he will not leave Jesus In hell, and will not see his Holy one be corrupted.

I am not sure what the means.............. Joyce took it to mean that the devils thought they had him being ignorant of what they had done by killing him, and BAM they realized the made a terrible mistake.

Scripture is clear that the L-rd atoned for mankind on the cross...it was at that time the curtain was ripped in two amd a way made into the Holy of Holies...not some time after

when Jesus went to Hell, which if you check your Bible is not Satan's home-base for his nefarious operations...this idea is uninspired guess-work and poor exegesis on behalf

of some teachers in the WoF movement, based on traditional misconceptions and popular works such as Dantes 'Inferno' and the Passion plays that were rife in Europe hundreds

of years ago...and are still performed in some areas.

That is scripture, not the way I tell it, but I certainly would never humiliate someone that did read the Word, and believed it as written.

My version is that Jesus went to Hell, kicked the devil's butt, and stripped him of all authority. That is also scripture. My version is a little more violent on the Lord's part. The scripture said he was made lower than the angels. Not that he was, but Made. You better believe he is not made that way anymore. That means the angelic class was given some type of authority over him. Was that in hell? I don't know. That is scripture though.

You can call it Scripture all you like...but it doesn't make it so my dear brother...honestly, I don't expect you to believe me over night..but in time see what Scripture really says

without someones private interpretation or theology directing your foot-steps.

So what about WOF BOTZ? I have listened to Kenneth Copeland for years. The man is 75 years old, still flys a jet, travels all over the world, keeps a tight TV schedule. Do you not notice those that live their life wrong get removed from ministry? That is scripture. The wicked will not live their full days, nor will the Lord Bless them. 35 years of ministry, and Brother Copeland canceled one meeting. He disobeyed God about his back, and it cost him. 35 years Bots, not one sick day, being somewhere everyday.

I was unaware that being aged, flying a jet and keeping a tight TV schedule were the marks of godliness.

It does not take a genius to know the man is protected and blessed of the Lord.

I guess not.

So what is the difference? WOF takes a stance that if God said, we believe it, and that settles it. That is all WOF is. God is on our side, He is never the cause of the issue. If Jesus said nothing by any means shall hurt you, then we are told to believe him over the 10,000 that died. Believe the Word, not the World around you.

The WoF movement has a mixture in it...some of what is taught is very good...but somehow amongst the wheat, tares have been sown.

G-d upholds the cause of the righteous...He is not on anyones side but His own...it is up to us to make sure we are on His side and play by His rules.

When in Prison, I was looking for answers, and getting every book I could get my hands on. It was ministries like Copeland, Meyers, Duplantis, and Hagin that you could write, and they send you anything you asked for free. They were there when I needed the help the most. I had a locker full of books and tapes.

I realise that many good things have come out of this ministry...it really grieves me to feel the need to 'pop' the balloon on certain issues...but you can't sweep the bad stuff

under the good stuff...it just doesn't work that way...everything must be exposed for what it is.

You have several people that say Joyce has helped them here, is it really Cool Botz to put down the person after so many other believers said they have been helped? Is that the best thing to do? Really?

I was being honest and upfront...and trying to put my very real concerns across in a fair and loving way...

Jesus Is Lord.

Amen...He is.