which commandments?

[His son]

{/quote]

If we had just turned the other cheek how many more Americans do you suppose would be laying dead in our streets. You should read the story of Seargent York who had a struggle with the turning of the other cheek issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reading the words of Christ is easy. Actually DOING it, that's hard. Your point is that you don't really believe Christ meant "turn the other cheek" when he said it. Once again, we're back at the "creating God in OUR image." [You assume a lot you don't know about. Christ made it clear that if some one comes against you personally you are to turn the other cheeck.]

There are those of us in the church who DO think he meant it and meant it universally. Here's the ultimate example of turning the other cheek:

Christ did the right thing, even unto death, even in the face of his own vulnerability. He understood that this life is short, and the next is long. He was more afraid of dying in disbelief and fear than physical discomfort on this plane. And he said "Father forgive them."

This is the supreme example Christ gave us. As I said, living it is hard. Choose this day who you will serve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[borntorebel]

His son says,

You need to take the whole of bible doctrine into consideration, and read those Scriptures where The Lord identified Himself unto the annointed leaders of Israel and told them that He was going to destroy their enemies. God uses nations to bring His judgments against other nations. You have to take it all in the context it is written.

Yes God does use governments to bring forth judgment. I believe that. What I am speaking against is christians who have the attitude of "let's go get those terrorists and make them pay, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out." That isn't a christian approach. If one has committed him/herself to the military to defend our country, then that is their job. Nowhere in the NT does it say that one in military service should quit. I do believe however that one in military service should have the proper conscience towards how they carry out their orders. God doesn't operate in that manner (killing all the enemies of His people, christians, to further His truth) today like He did in the OT. Jesus rebuked the disciples for thinking about that kind of kingdom. God clearly tells us through His Son Jesus that we are to love our enemies. Does that mean our gov't shouldn't protect our land? No, it doesn't, for Jesus was talking to individuals, not gov'ts. Christianity was never meant to be governmental philosophy.

I am a veteran of the armed forces and served in Desert Storm. During my time in the Middle East, I had the opportunity to talk with several Muslims, Muslims converted to Christianity and Christian missionaries. I gained a good understanding of what they thought about our presence there then and our culture, and I believe through my discussions with people of the Muslim faith recently, I have an understanding of their views now. Many of the Iraqi pople are glad we toppled the regime of Saddam Hussein. Many aren't. There was a book written recently by Pat Buchanan about the views of people from the Middle East towards America which is very eye opening. Did you know the US government helped train Osama Bin Laden in many of his guerilla warfare tactics? Do you know of all the things America has done in the Middle East, both good and bad? Why does the American gov't support military activities by the Israeli's that they wouldn't support from any other country? There have been atrocities committed on all sides of the Israeli/Palestinian/Arab conflict. Did you know the 9/11 commission report said there wasn't demonstrable evidence to support the theory that Iraq/Saddam Hussein was directly involved in the attacks on America? Why did we attack a country when we didn't have adequate evidence they were involved in the 9/11 attacks? Was Saddam Hussein an atrocious, evil dictator? Yes, no doubt about that. Was it our job to topple him and try to install a democratic gov't in Iraq? Well, that's a very debatable subject. We are seeing now the terrible results of that decision. Why hasn't President Bush apologized in any way for the fact he was wrong about WMD's? I can understand why some Muslims hate America. I don't think that justifies the terrorist activities they have committed against us and other democratic countries, but I do understand why they think they're right.

Nowhere in scripture does it say WE are to bring about peace in the earth. God and only God will do that.

May God's power and peace be wtih you,

Ron

[Guest Colossians]

Why does the American gov't support military activities by the Israeli's that they wouldn't support from any other country?

For 4 reasons:

1. America uses poor nations as proselyte states: it effectively extends its own borders by offering defence to those poor states, and so receives access to them and a landing point should it need it.

2. America is full of Christians who think that Israel is still God's chosen nation. They read the OT as if it had not been fulfilled in Christ, and feel that in order to be blessed, they should bless Israel.

3. America is full of Zionists who want Israel to be supreme over other semetic peoples.

4. America is full of Jewish owned banks and money.

Edited November 20, 2004 by Colossians

[Guest yod]

Why does the American gov't support military activities by the Israeli's that they wouldn't support from any other country?

what military activities are you speaking of?

For 4 reasons:

1. America uses poor nations as proselyte states: it effectively extends its own borders by offering defence to those poor states, and so receives access to them and a landing point should it need it.

what does this have to do with Israel?

2. America is full of Christians who think that Israel is still God's chosen nation. They read the OT as if it had not been fulfilled in Christ, and feel that in order to be blessed, they should bless Israel.

Yeah, guilty as charged. I believe the Bible....so sue me.

3. America is full of Zionists who want Israel to be supreme over other semetic peoples.

that is a GROSS MISCHARACTERIZATION of zionism. Completely false and I resent the implication.

Zionism is simply the belief that jews have a right to a homeland. That homeland is Israel. Peaceful Arabs and muslims who live in Israel enjoy the highest standard of living from Europe to Australia...and have the right to vote or hold political office.

Who gave them this right? Zionist jews!

4. America is full of Jewish owned banks and money.

Now you sound like a paranoid bigot. Jews in America do relatively little to support Israel.

It's Bible-believing christians who are Israel's best friends so quit with the "zionist conspiracy" bullcorn already.

[Guest Colossians]

America uses poor nations as proselyte states: it effectively extends its own borders by offering defence to those poor states, and so receives access to them and a landing point should it need it.

what does this have to do with Israel?

If America disappeared tomorrow morning, Israel would disappear tommorow afternoon.

America is full of Christians who think that Israel is still God's chosen nation. They read the OT as if it had not been fulfilled in Christ, and feel that in order to be blessed, they should bless Israel.

Yeah, guilty as charged. I believe the Bible....so sue me.

Too bad you don’t believe the part where Jesus said He came to fulfill the prophets, and the entire NT which tells us all blessings are in Christ via Calvary and no-where else.

America is full of Zionists who want Israel to be supreme over other semetic peoples.

Zionism is simply the belief that jews have a right to a homeland. That homeland is Israel.

Then why is home New York? A home away from home?

[Guest evangelina]

Colossians,

I agree with everything you have mentioned. Do you know that our kind is fast becoming extinct?

On every board I visit people are turning back to the law of Moses and also to observing Sabbath and New moon and all the feasts all over again.

It seems that once a Christian spends some time around Messianics or those of Judaism, they become jealous and give up the work that the Holy Spirit had begun in them through faith and grace and now they want to finish what began in the spirit with their flesh.

Be strong in the Lord!

evangelina

Edited November 23, 2004 by evangelina

[borntorebel]

yod,

Can you please explain to me why we should support Israel? Why should we help them treat all Arabs as militant terrorists? Where in scripture does it say that christians are to help them even if they still aren't recognizing their Savior?

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[Guest yod]

what does this have to do with Israel?

If America disappeared tomorrow morning, Israel would disappear tommorow afternoon.

you will see soon enough

Yeah, guilty as charged. I believe the Bible....so sue me.

Too bad you don’t believe the part where Jesus said He came to fulfill the prophets, and the entire NT which tells us all blessings are in Christ via Calvary and no-where else.

He fulfilled the prophecies which speak of His (first) coming, yes. This should cause you to consider that the entire Bible is true. Do you not recognize that there is still more to come?

For instance....this one hasn't happened yet

Isaiah 19:25

The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance."

Notice who His inheritance is? Why them of all the nations He could have chosen? Don't be Cain. There is no reason to be jealous and envy. Humble yourself to accept His will and you will be blessed in ways the you will never know otherwise.

And how about this one?

Hosea 3:4 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days

It's going to happen in your lifetime.

Zionism is simply the belief that jews have a right to a homeland. That homeland is Israel.

Then why is home New York? A home away from home?

There is nothing wrong with the land that God gave to them...and He's been holding it for their return for 2,000 years now. The time to favor Zion has come. (Psalm 102)

This is what the LORD says,

he who appoints the sun to shine by day,

who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night,

who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-

the LORD Almighty is his name:

"Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD , "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."

================================

I agree with everything you have mentioned. Do you know that our kind is fast becoming extinct?

Thank God that more people have learned to read the whole Bible!

On every board I visit people are turning back to the law of Moses and also to observing Sabbath and New moon and all the feasts all over again.

It seems that once a Christian spends some time around Messianics or those of Judaism, they become jealous and give up the work that the Holy Spirit had begun in them through faith and grace and now they want to finish what began in the spirit with their flesh.

That is a gross mischaracterization of the facts. I forgive you for being ignorant and misinformed. I can help with that if you are teachable

The Apostles, Disciples and the original church all celebrated Yeshua in observing Sabbath, New Moons, and Festivals until gentiles took over and kicked them out.

But besides the historical aspect....is there a problem with following God's Word?

Does a holiday have to be pagan before you can call it "christian"?

===================================

Can you please explain to me why we should support Israel?

1. Because history proves that those who bless Israel are blessed and those who curse Israel are cursed. The Bible also mentions that bit of factual trivia in Genesis 12:3

2. The key to a worldwide revival is in their return. (Romans 11:12-15)

Why should we help them treat all Arabs as militant terrorists?

First of all that is a lie. There are over a million ARAB Israeli citizens who enjoy the same privaledges as any Israeli jew. They can vote and have elected representatives in the Knesset (Congress). They are treated better by Israel than ANY Arab nation treats their own arab citizens. Open you eyes and quit believing the propoganda of jew haters.

But you asked the wrong question.

I WANT TO HEAR YOUR ANSWER TO THIS ONE BEFORE WE GO ANY FURTHER.

Should we let terrorists kill jewish people for the crime of being jewish?

Where in scripture does it say that christians are to help them even if they still aren't recognizing their Savior?

That's easy. Start at page 1 and go to the end.

Are we not to love all people?

But God must have known that folks like you would make a distinction when it comes to jews so He made certain to write it down for those who have eyes and actually read the Bible.

How many verses would you like? I don't really want to be typing all night...

How many would it take for you hear the truth????

Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you

[Guest shiloh357]

If America disappeared tomorrow morning, Israel would disappear tommorow afternoon.

Shows how much you know about Israel. Israel is a self sufficient nation. The money Israel gets from the United States makes up only 3% of their gross national profit. A significant portion of that money is given back to the United States to purchase weapons. That is a condition of their receiving foreign aid from the United States.

Israel is the only country in the Middle East that develops its own technology. They do not purchase the outdated rundown equipment that the Arabs do from Russia and China. In fact, Israel as been sharing their technology with the United States. The cell phone was invented in Israel. The concept of proximity detonators on missile warheads was invented in Israel.

There are many advancements in organ transplant that were discovered and developed in Israel. American lives have been saved by advancements in medical science developed in Israel.

America is full of Christians who think that Israel is still God's chosen nation. They read the OT as if it had not been fulfilled in Christ, and feel that in order to be blessed, they should bless Israel.

(snip)

Too bad you don

[Guest yod]

Hey Guys....this is in the Holy Bible.

Romans 11

Israel Is Not Cast Away

1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture saysin the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."

4 But what is the divine response to him? " I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

8 just as it is written,

"GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,

EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,

DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

9 And David says,

"LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,

AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.

10

" LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,

AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

(explanation of that last verse: If they are not holy, then neither are christians)

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,

HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

27

" THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,

WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?

36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Want some more?? There's plenty.