JohnD Posted December 30, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 30, 2012 LOL Well put, sister. Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted December 30, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 30, 2012 3) Having a fallen nature is not a sufficient condition to be eternally separated from God Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. Therefore, there must be a judgment where the judge will decide if there is that which is necessary on your part to enter into life. As in any proceeding, there will be that which testifies in favor of or against any individual. The only requirement for salvation is to be found as one who believed God and therefore it is accounted unto the one who believed for righteousness that they did not posses. "I had not known sin, but by the Law..." Romans 7:7 Those unable to understand the Law, (children, the mentally disabled) are covered by God's grace and are saved. But they still die. If you look into the Levitical Law you'll find that ignorance of it is no excuse and the verdict is still guilty. I understand the compassion people have for those you mentioned and there are many more... the people who never heard the name Jesus in North Korea for example. It really used to bother me. Because it never made sense letting people grow to the age of accountability if that means now they are eligible for hell fire... that's some bar mitsvah gift, Lord. There actually is not line of innocence (Psalm 51 in SIN my mother conceived me). We all have a fallen sin nature which makes even our "righteousnesses" as filthy rags to a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). The solution to the puzzle in of course the character and ability of God. God is omniscient. That means God knows all things. God knows all things past, all things present, all things future... including all the variables with humans given choices to make, including all the variables about had that baby lived to make a decision about Christ what that decision would have been. including if that man or woman had been born without the various handicaps, or the people in brutal dictatorial regions who cannot hear the Gospel... Trust God. He has proven himself to be MORE than fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstrats Posted December 31, 2012 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 31, 2012 JohnDB, re: "God is omniscient. That means God knows all things. God knows all things past, all things present, all things future..." So if before He creates a person, He knows that He will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire, why do you suppose He goes ahead and creates the person anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted December 31, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 31, 2012 Hell is eternal because all sin is directed against an eternal God - thus deserving an eternal punishment. It's very simple actually. I agree. Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coelacanth Posted December 31, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 91 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/25/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/24/1959 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Lately a lot of things in my life have caused me to doubt my faith. I have read the new testament over several times and most of the old testament once (I couldn't get through the last section of the old testament because frankly it was making my life overly depressing) so I have a fairly good understanding of scripture (not perfect of course, no one can have that). And besides all the usual questions that come up when reading the Bible, one really important one stood out for me: I understand that sin requires punishment. I agree that sin requires punishment. What I don't understand is why a finite amount of sin should earn you infinite torment. Especially if you are a good person (example monks who devote their lives to meditation and better understanding). I have heard the argument that it is because you reject God and you don't want to be with him. However this does not make sense to me because deep down we ALL want to be with God, we just let the worldly things get in the way and get lost on our path on Earth. I'm having trouble reconcilling myself with this. I want everyone to be with me in Heaven. I really beleive that deep down everyone can be good and that this potential for good should allow them to only have only a finite amount of time in Hell. Well, good old Hume would ask: What is more likely, that God allows infinite punishment for finite sins, or that infinite punishment is a human creation to lock people into the faith? Ciao - viole And I would ask is God's word the truth or is it a lie? Because it is either one or the other. Even Jesus mentioned the flame that never dies, however He did say that for those who were not saved it would be the second death. So wether or not the flame is eternal or not isn't even the question, the question is are those who wind up there buring forever or are they just dead again? I have my own theory but one thing is for sure no one knows the answer but God himself. Yet insinunating that man kind has made this up so that people remain in the chuch is preposterous and shows that one has no regard for Gods word, from beginning to end this has been a constant theme so it must be reality, otherwise God would have ommitted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted December 31, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 31, 2012 Romans 2:12-16 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. This is a hard passage to understand, for there is no guarantee of salvation outside of Christ Jesus. Yet, God judges the persons heart through Christ Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted January 1, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I believe Hell to be eternal, if not would you have to do to get out? It a horrible thing but most people have chance after chance to accept the Lord. I believe too that it's the word of God and that will never change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2013 OneLight This is a hard passage to understand, for there is no guarantee of salvation outside of Christ Jesus. Yet, God judges the persons heart through Christ Jesus. I think God looks at nature. He made us like him, so there would be some expectation that just by nature and what God put in each of us would line up with who God is without the Law. If we are like God, yet kill, rape, pillage, then we violate our very nature, and have to be judged. So can we make it by works, keeping the nature without the Word? I don't know, but what you said above, I sure would not want to steak my eternal destination on that, for if I know of a better way, yet deny that, but keep my own works by nature, then I have to be judged on works, and the fact I rejected Jesus the better way. Jesus Is Lord. There have been, and still are, groups of people who never heard of the bible, God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit as we know them. They do His will, by the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin, without even knowing who He is. Those who have heard His salvation and reject Him cannot be judged as it says in the verses I provided for they rejected the message and the Messenger. Remember, God judges their hearts through Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted January 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted January 1, 2013 JohnDB, re: "God is omniscient. That means God knows all things. God knows all things past, all things present, all things future..." So if before He creates a person, He knows that He will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire, why do you suppose He goes ahead and creates the person anyway? Because nobody that goes in goes in ignorantly. They willfully chose to be against God by rejecting that which God revealed of himself unto them and are without excuse. God still has a use for them. God uses heretics in the church to make the righteous shine forth. God uses atheist, agnostics and those who follow false religions for his purposes too. In the end, just as we toss out the jug that carried the milk, God will dispose of that which no longer has a use. You and the rest have an opportunity to follow God and his ways but choose not too believe them who he has sent repeatedly unto you. Your end will be that you chose to deny Gods existence and you will be in the Lake of fire for eternity gnashing your teeth and remembering all of us who tried to warn you. But, oh no, there goes one of those guys trying to scare me with Hell again....no, we're just trying to share the truth and help you to avoid the inevitable but the truth is that you have seen Jesus and have decided that he isn't worth following, that being like him isn't the right thing to do. Otherwise you would simply fall in love with him and seek to know him better everyday. God is righteous. Everyone goes in by choice. You don't have too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allofgrace Posted January 2, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 158 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/30/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2013 Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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