The Role of Parent’s Authority in relation to a Christian?

[GoldenEagle]

Just was posting the first few points on here for the sake of understanding what the discussion began about for those who might just now be joining the discussion.

We actually were freed from sin to be in bondage to Christ. We were never made free from all, we just changed masters. We are still merely servants.

As to this comment in bold I do agree. I want to clarify specifically on this thread that we are NOT free to sin. I agree we are either slaves to sin or God’s righteousness (Rom. 6:16) making us new creations in Christ. (2 Cor. 5:17)

Romans 6:15-18

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

VII. There is evidence 2 Timothy 3:2 is not about Believers. Take the verses directly following it in verses 6 and 7 for example. These are clearly people who are religious but do not have a relationship with God. They learn but are not able to understand God’s salvation plan through Jesus Christ. Do you agree or disagree?

2 Timothy 3:6-7

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

A. Where does the text in context point to Believers?

B. How can this text be viewed in the light of adult Christian children?

C. So basically while you view Believers as free in Christ a man must still be subject to the blessings of his father? A woman must do the same until she is married at which time she would be subject to her husband who would be subject to his father? I disagree with this view of parental authority from a Biblical perspective. What Scripture passages refer to this view again?

How do you think God is going to handle those from 2 Timothy?

Unfortunately, the same thing that will happen to non-Believers in Romans 1 – they will face eternal separation from God (Hell). Not going to be pretty.

1. Have you ever considered the damage done by the youth who believe that their parents are obsolete after they move out of the nest?

I actually have. It is sad when one cannot trust one’s own parents. But not everyone’s parents understand boundaries and how the new beautiful relationship of a marriage changes the role of parental authority.

2. These same ones who are always tired of doing things the same old way and desire change?

Could you please rephrase the question? Is this in light of the verses you posted?

3. What do those old ancients know anyway as they didn't even have indoor plumbing when they were kids?

Is this a rhetorical question? Please rephrase. Is this in light of the verses you posted?

Next two…

IX. I agree that spiritual abuse is closely related to parents distorted view of their roles and should be addressed. The concept of owning your children is part of the old covenant (Mosaic) and not part of the new covenant (Abrahamic through Christ) as once again Christians are considered joint heirs with Jesus Christ. (Rom 8:17) Do you agree or disagree?

X. We are called to love parents as fellow heirs with Christ. (Eph. 5:21; Phil. 2:3; 1 Pet. 5:5, Rom. 8:17) Do you agree or disagree?

On a personal note: To clarify I have a great relationship with my parents. After talking things over with my wife, I often discuss things with them especially in regard to any major decisions. Often we consult her parents as well. They offer their advice (which is usually Biblical and on target) and then let us make our choice on the matter. We pray and ask God for wisdom through His Word then make the decision. On occasion I do not consult them or I don’t disagree with their advice. Do they think that when I do so I’m out from under their authority? No. I am to lead my family as the spiritual, emotional, & intellectual head of my little family. They are in agreement. They have been in full-time ministry for 30 years.

[Sevenseas]

C. So basically while you view Believers as free in Christ a man must still be subject to the blessings of his father? A woman must do the same until she is married at which time she would be subject to her husband who would be subject to his father? I disagree with this view of parental authority from a Biblical perspective. What Scripture passages refer to this view again?

With regards to the red sentence (GE post):

and also subject to the curses. Why would you want to be subject to that? This is a far deeper principal than what has been touched on by

Gary in his defense of his understanding of the family relationship.

1. Have you ever considered the damage done by the youth who believe that their parents are obsolete after they move out of the nest?

I actually have. It is sad when one cannot trust one’s own parents. But not everyone’s parents understand boundaries and how the new beautiful relationship of a marriage changes the role of parental authority.

Have you considered the damage done by parents of either gender to their children? It's ALL sin

The ONLY way to get out from under it, is to put yourself under the blood of Christ and say all things are become new

including your new family when you get married.

3. What do those old ancients know anyway as they didn't even have indoor plumbing when they were kids?

or the reverse: what do those pipsqueaks know anyway...why when I was their age, I had to walk 1400 miles to get to school (exaggeration)

None of those questions have ANY bearing on the definitions scripture so generously provides in order that we can, with

clear conscience, move on and not carry a load we were never meant to carry

It is a CURSE to continue to carry all the families problems etc. Come out from under it!

You still do the right thing...you just do it in the name of Jesus. That works even better!!

[Sevenseas]

IX. I agree that spiritual abuse is closely related to parents distorted view of their roles and should be addressed. The concept of owning your children is part of the old covenant (Mosaic) and not part of the new covenant (Abrahamic through Christ) as once again Christians are considered joint heirs with Jesus Christ. (Rom 8:17)

If I wrote of the harm done by my mother to the family...to my dad, myself and how she has used God's name to control others, you would

think I was a writer of Christian fiction and was trying to make a point with a good read

To wit: The authority you ALLOW in your life can make or break you

I had to repent of allowing my mother to play God in my life. By the way, my husband and I actually have allowed her

to live with us because my younger brother took control of all her considerable assets and then threatened to have

her..ahem...put in a home...when she wanted them back. So, I am doing the right thing, my husband is doing the

right thing and not for the $$$ cause my brother got it all. She does help out with her pension, but she has a very nice

double bedroom/sitting room that my husband made for her and I take her where she wants to go BUT I do not let

her use me anymore or live her life through me. She has alienated every single other family member. Every single

one...but will still try to control me because she just can't help herself.

So yeah, I understand the part about respecting and taking care of one's parents and I actually have a pretty

good grip on breaking things in my life that are not godly even though they might have that appearance

What a story...sigh.....

[gdemoss]

GE, you are a lot of fun to dialog with. Your organizing points into 'outline' form for the purpose of keeping clarity (?) is neat. I have never met a poster like this before. It does, however, smack of the way lawyers approach things when arguing points and is most generally the reason they never agree on things and are able to sway the law to agree with their position as "A" doesn't mix with "B" so therefore we cannot even consider "C", so now you must in all good conscience let the murdering crook that I represent go free on technicality. There will be a lot of this on judgment day over the scriptures and all will be subdued and destroyed who don't simply come without a lawyer or as a lawyer. People many times give themselves away when they say things like 'case closed'....another lawyer in our midst. Please note that I am not saying that you are a lawyer but merely pointing out the resemblance to the way that lawyers attack the scriptures (law). I have already stated that I personally believe you do so for the purpose of clarity. Verse and chapter divisions mean the world to a lawyer as well as punctuation of which none as far as I know are divinely inspired. May we proceed....heh?

VII. There is evidence 2 Timothy 3:2 is not about Believers. Take the verses directly following it in verses 6 and 7 for example. These are clearly people who are religious but do not have a relationship with God. They learn but are not able to understand God’s salvation plan through Jesus Christ. Do you agree or disagree?

2 Timothy 3:6-7

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

You are reading this as evidence to support a claim that it is speaking about nonbelievers but the whole of the letter begs to differ as the complete context of the letter is about church leadership. We have been trained up to dissect scripture in such a way that whole thought patterns hinge upon a single word. I have had pastors of churches point to a single word and argue that it changes the outcome of everything in the text, both in 1 Cor 3 and Rom 8 but we need not discuss that here as it is off topic. Your idea that this verse causes it to be referring to nonbelievers is dealt with in 3:5. And 3:6 being connected with 'For' shows that we are still talking about the same group of people. If you insist on believing that these things do not pertain to believers then we must agree to disagree and move on.

A. Where does the text in context point to Believers?

The whole letter pertains to believers. Some of which are in error. Non believers are never addressed.

B. How can this text be viewed in the light of adult Christian children?

The same as all the rest applies. A person can be both a father and a child though he be an adult. He is father to his children but a child of his father. Are you not a child of God though you be an adult? It is all about mindset and manipulation of the text to make it fit into personally held doctrines of men.

C. So basically while you view Believers as free in Christ a man must still be subject to the blessings of his father? A woman must do the same until she is married at which time she would be subject to her husband who would be subject to his father? I disagree with this view of parental authority from a Biblical perspective. What Scripture passages refer to this view again?

It follows the basic patterns laid out beginning in Genesis and ending in Revelation. When doing the math Jacob was somewhere around 70 or so when he went to his uncles to find a wife. He was given orders by he father on what to do and where to go. And he swore by the fear of his father Isaac unto Laban. Have you prayerfully considered a walk through the whole of scripture concerning the topic instead of simply believing that a few indirect scriptures in the New Testament have changed the whole course of history and righteousness? Jesus came to straighten out widely held misunderstandings about true righteousness in his person as he walked perfectly before God though it is mentioned that he broke the Sabbath. We are told that Jesus was subject unto Joseph even though Joseph wasn't really his father. There is no evidence to suggest that Jesus ever made his own decisions but went to his father about everything including what to do about his wife and how to instruct her. While we should base our earthly fathers instruction upon that which our heavenly father shows to be right, we must follow our earthly fathers instruction when it does not contradict the instruction given by our heavenly until the day of their death.

2. These same ones who are always tired of doing things the same old way and desire change?

Could you please rephrase the question? Is this in light of the verses you posted?

Looks like I made a punctuation mistake ? no question here.

3. What do those old ancients know anyway as they didn't even have indoor plumbing when they were kids?

Is this a rhetorical question? Please rephrase. Is this in light of the verses you posted?

Yes, rhetorical. No response necessary.

Next two…

IX. I agree that spiritual abuse is closely related to parents distorted view of their roles and should be addressed. The concept of owning your children is part of the old covenant (Mosaic) and not part of the new covenant (Abrahamic through Christ) as once again Christians are considered joint heirs with Jesus Christ. (Rom 8:17) Do you agree or disagree?

X. We are called to love parents as fellow heirs with Christ. (Eph. 5:21; Phil. 2:3; 1 Pet. 5:5, Rom. 8:17) Do you agree or disagree?

On a personal note: To clarify I have a great relationship with my parents. After talking things over with my wife, I often discuss things with them especially in regard to any major decisions. Often we consult her parents as well. They offer their advice (which is usually Biblical and on target) and then let us make our choice on the matter. We pray and ask God for wisdom through His Word then make the decision. On occasion I do not consult them or I don’t disagree with their advice. Do they think that when I do so I’m out from under their authority? No. I am to lead my family as the spiritual, emotional, & intellectual head of my little family. They are in agreement. They have been in full-time ministry for 30 years.

Small bites require the first to be thoroughly chewed to pieces first. Lets wait until you have exhausted the first two points before continuing.

Future questions that must be answered. If there is such a time that a child is no longer under the authority of their adamic parents and following lineage then how does one determine the exact time that this authority ceases to exist? If one cites Gen 2:24 as the time then it stands to reason that a man who never marries never is brought out from under the bondage of the chain of authority. If one reasons that their is some other standard by which to know when the parents authority over the child ends then Gen 2:24 cannot be cited. So which is it? When does the bible 'clearly' state that the child is free to independently decide all matters for themselves without the need to go by that which honors their parents wishes?

Once we get passed this argument, we need to address the related point of when the younger brother is out from under the authority of the elder brother. Authority can be quite a tricky subject. Will we ever be out from under the authority of our elder brother Jesus? Do the things on earth accurately represent that which they represent in heaven or no? Death is the dividing line. Biblical authority has always went along the lines of chain of command set in order by God that I personally cannot find written out in the law anywhere. The chain of command can be seen in the murderous plots of royal families as well as in the birthright passed down (which could subsequently be lost or sold as well). It is an interesting topic to say the least.

Gary

[GoldenEagle]

IX. I agree that spiritual abuse is closely related to parents distorted view of their roles and should be addressed. The concept of owning your children is part of the old covenant (Mosaic) and not part of the new covenant (Abrahamic through Christ) as once again Christians are considered joint heirs with Jesus Christ. (Rom 8:17)

If I wrote of the harm done by my mother to the family...to my dad, myself and how she has used God's name to control others, you would

think I was a writer of Christian fiction and was trying to make a point with a good read

To wit: The authority you ALLOW in your life can make or break you

I had to repent of allowing my mother to play God in my life. By the way, my husband and I actually have allowed her

to live with us because my younger brother took control of all her considerable assets and then threatened to have

her..ahem...put in a home...when she wanted them back. So, I am doing the right thing, my husband is doing the

right thing and not for the $$$ cause my brother got it all. She does help out with her pension, but she has a very nice

double bedroom/sitting room that my husband made for her and I take her where she wants to go BUT I do not let

her use me anymore or live her life through me. She has alienated every single other family member. Every single

one...but will still try to control me because she just can't help herself.

So yeah, I understand the part about respecting and taking care of one's parents and I actually have a pretty

good grip on breaking things in my life that are not godly even though they might have that appearance

What a story...sigh.....

I'm so sorry for the damage done to your family through your mother. I will pray for restoration of relationships and forgiveness.

Check out: "If Mama Ain't Happy..." http://www.recoverin...ama-aint-happy/

Sevenseas have you heard of the concept of Narcissism? This might be relevant to study this in light of what you've said in this post.

A Narcissist is in essence the sin of Pride on speed.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Narcissism

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

• Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
  
• Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
  
• Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
  
• Requires excessive admiration
  
• Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
  
• Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
  
• Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
  
• Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
  
• Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
  

[Sevenseas]

I'm so sorry for the damage done to your family through your mother. I will pray for restoration of relationships and forgiveness.

Thank you. Some hard lessons to be learned in all of that which is why I posted it. I do not usually talk about myself and

only made a point because this is a topic that is not taught on very much and yet, it can be a stumbling block a person's whole

life!~

Sevenseas have you heard of the concept of Narcissism? This might be relevant to study this in light of what you've said in this post

Yes. She doesn't quite fit the entire profile though and I think there is a spiritual element at work.

Although she certainly tends to see things only as they apply to her and that would include the entire world LOL!

No amount of reasoning or Bible study or common sense will ever apply and some people are just like that.

It's always the other person that is wrong. And yes, it is pride and the idea that God has somehow given her

a special dispensation. The first time I said 'that's not God'..she looked me in the eye and walked away.

That spirit does not like to be contradicted

I will say this, sometimes we do not understand why we have this or that problem or difficulty in our life because we are too close to it.

It's not that God does not or won't answer us, we just are not in the place to see what we need to know. If that makes sense....

If mama ain't happy....ain't nobody man! LOL! How very true......

Anyway, enuff about that! Just something to be learned.

[Sevenseas]

Comments on the article link you provided:

If I recall correctly, Bill Gothard said that it was only when you mastered your relationship with your mother that you’d be ready for marriage.

To me, that sounds more like something to run from...as fast as you can...LOL!....through the wall if you have to

The only problem was that no one stopped to consider whether Mama might be wrong. Whether Mama might use her powers to be selfish and manipulative. And, worst of all, whether God might actually speak directly to Daddy or one of us children.

See, that's what happened...Mama found her voice and got louder and louder...of course rebellion is the final outcome of that

One day, after another argument, Mama hung up on me, and I decided I was too tired of all the drama to call her back. We didn’t speak for months. During that time, I learned about setting appropriate boundaries. I learned about things like passive-aggressive behavior and co-dependency. And my outlook not only on my relationship with Mama, but also on all that ATI had taught me about honoring and obeying my parents, changed.

In my case, it was years....and I learned about boundaries too...passive aggressive behavior...that is really the forte of people

who just cannot be honest with you and have a face to face...they always want to use the back door and while you are

expecting them to ring the doorbell, they show up at the table and you are not sure how they got there

We ultimately reconciled with Mama, but not until she had missed some very important life events.

Sometimes it's the only way

And while Mama might have had these struggles regardless of whether my family had ever heard of Bill Gothard or ATI, I have to think her struggles were exacerbated by a system that basically gave her absolute power over the lives of her family members.

As I said, be careful of who you ALLOW to have power over you

[GoldenEagle]

Re: Narcassim see this article "The Raising of a Christian Narcissist": http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/09/the-raising-of-a-christian-narcissist/

I will say this, sometimes we do not understand why we have this or that problem or difficulty in our life because we are too close to it.

It's not that God does not or won't answer us, we just are not in the place to see what we need to know. If that makes sense....

Love this in bold. Yes it does make sense. Thank you for sharing.

If mama ain't happy....ain't nobody man! LOL! How very true......

We hear it all the time but is this really Biblical?

Edited October 15, 2012 by GoldenEagle

[GoldenEagle]

Comments on the article link you provided:

If I recall correctly, Bill Gothard said that it was only when you mastered your relationship with your mother that you’d be ready for marriage.

To me, that sounds more like something to run from...as fast as you can...LOL!....through the wall if you have to file:///C:UserskeyjwAppDataLocalTemp1msohtmlclip11clip_image001.png

Yes, run through the wall and keep running. Don’t touch BG’s stuff with a ten foot pole.

The only problem was that no one stopped to consider whether Mama might be wrong. Whether Mama might use her powers to be selfish and manipulative. And, worst of all, whether God might actually speak directly to Daddy or one of us children.

See, that's what happened...Mama found her voice and got louder and louder...of course rebellion is the final outcome of that

Right. Louder and louder she goes till everyone goes. See this article: http://www.recoverin...every-good-man/

Behind Every Good Man...

One day, after another argument, Mama hung up on me, and I decided I was too tired of all the drama to call her back. We didn’t speak for months. During that time, I learned about setting appropriate boundaries. I learned about things like passive-aggressive behavior and co-dependency. And my outlook not only on my relationship with Mama, but also on all that ATI had taught me about honoring and obeying my parents, changed.

In my case, it was years....and I learned about boundaries too...passive aggressive behavior...that is really the forte of people

who just cannot be honest with you and have a face to face...they always want to use the back door and while you are

expecting them to ring the doorbell, they show up at the table and you are not sure how they got there

Have you read the following book? I think it would really help you.

Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, The: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church

By David Johnson, Jeff VanVonderen

And while Mama might have had these struggles regardless of whether my family had ever heard of Bill Gothard or ATI, I have to think her struggles were exacerbated by a system that basically gave her absolute power over the lives of her family members.

As I said, be careful of who you ALLOW to have power over you

Yes. Caution is important.

Okay... Now onto Gary's post.

Edited October 15, 2012 by GoldenEagle

[GoldenEagle]

{Deleted Post not meant for this thread}