De-Evolution of Culture

[thomas t]

Hello Jon,

ok - I'm pleased to exchange opinions with you.

Let me start with the easy questions and end up with the controversial ones:

The difference is as a Christian God forgives us for our sins because of putting our faith in Christ wouldn’t you agree?

yes.

The passage in Jude refers to Sodom and Gomorrah. So what you’re saying is the sin committed by the people in those cities was… what?

.. according to Jude, it was aiming at having sex with unknown people. In addition to that, I have the impression that the tone, in which Jude says "go after" in this verse (7), includes his disapproval of the fact that the people of Sodom and Gomorrha didn't pay any attention to the guests' consent - rather the absense of which.

I wanted proof? the truth was, I was wanting to criticize the absence of it, so that the participants of this thread could discount for themselves the value of the allegation made, if they like.

Not answering a question is the same as omission, in my opinion. That is actually very politically correct in my estimation as the reason for this you’ve given is you don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. Christ was concerned with people and loved people dearly to the point of death. But was he particularly ever untruthful to the Scribes and Pharisees who believed errantly they could be saved by good works? Are you saying we not to try to speak the truth to correct errant thinking or theology?

If you want to correct someone's teaching, don't do that with me (I'm the wrong one for this). I'm not saying that I share (all of) your views, neither am I saying that I don't. I simply avoid laying down what are mine concerning the topic of homosexuality and sin. Maybe you want to discuss the question what happens if someone comes up with false teaching. Well, that's simply another question, maybe for a different thread.

God’s judgment is in the Bible my friend would you agree? The Bible says homosexuality is sin would you agree?

The latter question was the one I was not willing to answer and I'd like to ask you to accept.

God's judgement is in the Bible - but as you wrote: God's judgement. Repeating parrot-fashion what you think is in the Bible maybe is not the activity he wants us to have.

Perhaps what you really were trying to reference is Matt. 7:5?

I actually meant the verse I indicated, Jon. I try to be sensitive.

I do not practice a continual, habitual sin like homosexuality. But it is not the only thing that is a habitual sin there is pornography, habitual lying, habitual stealing, fornication, addiction to gambling, etc. There are others would you agree?

I don't like to add on to the terminology

1) habitual sin. To the best of my knowledge, this terminology cannot be found in the Bible. Maybe you "enhanced" the term "sin" by adding "habitual". Then, the question arrises: why enhancing anything written? I agree: the word "bible" doesn't figure in the Bible and we still use it. That's the only example of non-biblical definitions to descible biblical content that make sense, in my view - the rest of the non-biblical terminology generally used for scripture I personally don't like so much.

If you want to establish different categories of sin you need to employ biblical evidence for it, I guess.

2) pornograpy labelled as sin. Look, Jon, there are people earning their living in that industry. Their job is part of their life. If you attack that, you attack them. At the same time, I'm not saying that it is good (just a matter of clarification).

Have a good day

Thomas

Edited November 17, 2012 by thomas t

[GoldenEagle]

Thomas,

Re: Sin and Habits

Habits everyone has. We wake up at certain times. We eat at certain times. We sleep at certain times. We brush our teeth at certain intervals of the day. And so forth and so on. Sin is sin in God's eyes. Yet there is the difference between a habitual sin (a sin that we continually do that we know is wrong from a Biblical perspective) and sin that we either fall into temptation on occasion or rarely at all. One we choose as a habit hourly, daily, weekly while the other is something we struggle with occasionally.

Let's take anger for example.

Ephesians 4:26-27

Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil.

James 1:20

For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Proverbs 29:11

A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

Psalm 37:8

Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath! Fret not yourself; it tends only to evil.

Ephesians 4:31

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

Matt. 5:21-22

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

So we know by these passages that anger is not a good thing. Anger is sin would you agree? It is not one of the fruits of the Spirit? (Gal. 5:22-23) If someone has a "bad temper" and throws temper tantrums often they have the habitual sin of anger would you agree? Perhaps you understand now what I was trying to say?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Thomas,

Re: Pornography...

Pornography deals with photography, videos, or cartoonish characters that are designed to stimulate sexual desires in viewers. The Bible doesn’t address the issue of pornography directly to my understanding. Yet there is sufficient Biblical evidence to point to Biblical principles that would deem pornography as evil.

Everyone who looks on a woman (I would say that this applies to looking at men as well by implication) to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. Lust is more than just the actual sexual act. Adultery can be committed in the mind and it is just as sinful.

Matt. 5:27-28

27 You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

We are to flee immorality that is a sin against our own body.

1 Cor. 6:18

Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

We are to be dead to immorality which amounts to idolatry.

Col. 3:5

Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

As Christians our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and we’re not our own as we were bought at a price. We’re to honor God with our bodies and our spirit which belong to God.

1 Cor. 6:19-20

19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Honestly if we cannot agree Biblically that pornography is sin then well I think we should move onto another subject. It seems plain to enough to me though?

I wonder how many people involved in the pornography industry are joyful, God-fearing, Bible believing Christ followers?

Re: Homosexuality

As you do not want to take a stand on homosexuality I think we've reached a point where the discussion is no longer fruitful.

God bless,

GE

[gdemoss]

Greek words that are part of the etymology of the word pornography.

pornē - a harlot, whore

pornos - whoremonger, fornicator

porneuō - commit fornication

porneia - fornication

I don't believe the bible is silent on porn. We ought to be very careful when it comes to things of a sexual nature and not turn the truth of God into a lie in any form, not just limiting that to the example in Romans 1.

Gary

[Guest]

To say this first, I'm not approving legal same sex marriage.

I'm reading between the lines of this question that you think that legalizing something equals approving it. In contrast, I think the following way:

If you cannot prove that legalizing something does not do harm to somebody, you should legalize the cause, if leaving it illegal would mean discriminating against anybody.

Two times "If": I hope that phrase is not too complicated.

It's Trouble With A Capital T

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. Ephesians 5:1-4

And IMO Will Affect The Children Of A Nation

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

You See

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Ephesians 5:11-16

[thomas t]

Hello Jon,

I'd like to start again with the easy questions. Yes, the homosexuality discussion doesn't have any fruit for now.

I wonder how many people involved in the pornography industry are joyful, God-fearing, Bible believing Christ followers?

I don't know anybody in this industry.

Perhaps you understand now what I was trying to say? [concerning "sin and habits"]

Well, I was just focussing on the possible making of a new category of sin. I always have a bad feeling when people do that. I mean, the Bible is already shameless when it comes to condemning sin. If you would put something on top, God might be going to create wrinkles in his forehead... Didn't he say everything? You said that the Bible is flawless. Well, it is. It should be left as it is, as you surely agree.

we should move onto another subject

Yeah, we should. Let's focus on this one:

Everyone who looks on a woman (I would say that this applies to looking at men as well by implication) to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. Lust is more than just the actual sexual act. Adultery can be committed in the mind and it is just as sinful.

Matt. 5:27-28

27 You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Looking at a woman does not necessarily mean lusting for them, as you surely agree. Jesus did not widen his statement to every kind of look at a woman, if she is undressed, I think.

Thomas

[jasoncran]

Two people simply living together is not a sin. But it can lead to lust and fornication, which are sins. However, if this couple joins together in faith before GOD to be man and wife as the Scriptures mandate, that may be a different story and not sinful. I personally believe that GOD sees that as marrage. On that point, I guess it depends on whether one believes that couples marriages must be sanctioned by the State in order to be valid.

Excellent points Parker. People have been brainwashed to believe that if the government doesn't recognize it as legal that it is not legitimate in Gods eyes. Simply not true.

Gary

so when the jews of today and this rite goes back to abraham and was added on. they made an oath to god and in front of men it means nothing? theres has always been a legal aspect to marriage. deuteromony 24 is that legal right where the jews of today read it in aramiac and sign it and the rabbi signs it. dad has his grandparents vows in his house. its something he took when grandma died.

[gdemoss]

Two people simply living together is not a sin. But it can lead to lust and fornication, which are sins. However, if this couple joins together in faith before GOD to be man and wife as the Scriptures mandate, that may be a different story and not sinful. I personally believe that GOD sees that as marrage. On that point, I guess it depends on whether one believes that couples marriages must be sanctioned by the State in order to be valid.

Excellent points Parker. People have been brainwashed to believe that if the government doesn't recognize it as legal that it is not legitimate in Gods eyes. Simply not true.

Gary

so when the jews of today and this rite goes back to abraham and was added on. they made an oath to god and in front of men it means nothing? theres has always been a legal aspect to marriage. deuteromony 24 is that legal right where the jews of today read it in aramiac and sign it and the rabbi signs it. dad has his grandparents vows in his house. its something he took when grandma died.

Nothing wrong with making and oath to God in front of men. Can you prove that God says it is necessary? Adam and Eve had witnesses? What about Deut 24? What has it to do with anything other than divorce? Maybe I missed something. I just can't buy into the claim that God requires these things without solid biblical evidence to support such a claim. The traditions and laws of men have destroyed much of Gods ways and will continue to do so until God intervenes and puts a stop to it.

Gary

[jasoncran]

deuteromony 24 sets rules on the firstborn from two marriages and so forth. that is a contract. and then the jews would have to record this contract. it was done orally and also in writing.

adam and eve? God and their sons witnessed that. sons being afterward. but the ane and hammurabi code which is older then mosaic law mentions divorce rights and marriage ceremony and abraham came from that culture.

the hebrews didnt invent their culture they got it from another and God used it to show things of himself. yes in part he did ordain that. aramiac and chaldean and hebrew are real close.poetic styles the same in writing.

john the baptist got this idea from the Jewish weddings"im the friend of the groom. declaring him" that is from a jewish wedding and its done today when the groom arrives the best man shouts"behold the groom".

i should do a thread on jewish weddings/jesus/ and the rapture. words and deeds and things done in a jewish wedding are really close to that

so you dont believe that any person shouldnt have witness ie those that are there to see the marriage? would you attend a gay wedding then?how else in that era was it known if so-so was married if you were TOLD of bethrothal and seen the marriage?

[gdemoss]

deuteromony 24 sets rules on the firstborn from two marriages and so forth. that is a contract. and then the jews would have to record this contract. it was done orally and also in writing.

adam and eve? God and their sons witnessed that. sons being afterward. but the ane and hammurabi code which is older then mosaic law mentions divorce rights and marriage ceremony and abraham came from that culture.

the hebrews didnt invent their culture they got it from another and God used it to show things of himself. yes in part he did ordain that. aramiac and chaldean and hebrew are real close.poetic styles the same in writing.

john the baptist got this idea from the Jewish weddings"im the friend of the groom. declaring him" that is from a jewish wedding and its done today when the groom arrives the best man shouts"behold the groom".

i should do a thread on jewish weddings/jesus/ and the rapture. words and deeds and things done in a jewish wedding are really close to that

so you dont believe that any person shouldnt have witness ie those that are there to see the marriage? would you attend a gay wedding then?how else in that era was it known if so-so was married if you were TOLD of bethrothal and seen the marriage?

Jason, your very hard to follow. You don't use scripture to base your points in when trying to prove something but instead call upon tradition that is outside of what we were given. I don't believe witnesses are necessary outside of God himself. Your question about gay marriage is out in left field. And according to what I see in the bible, people knew that you were married when you told them you were. Some chose not to say so but only to claim to be anothers sister. Unless you provide biblical support for your claim, I will never accept it as fact.

Gary