De-Evolution of Culture

[jasoncran]

ok so i guess they just make it up. the jews didnt have oral laws and the written nor any culture.

aish.com on marriage feasts. since im jewish i can ask my dad on this. i wasnt raised in the temple

http://www.aish.com/...m/48969841.html

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/477334/jewish/The-Procession.htm

i have read elsewhwere of the number of the escort with the groom and proclaiming him. and he does inspect the bride for spots and blemish.

deuteronomy 24

24 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

² And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

³ And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

⁴ Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

⁵ When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

⁶ No man shall take the nether or the upper millstone to pledge: for he taketh a man's life to pledge.

⁷ If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.

⁸ Take heed in the plague of leprosy, that thou observe diligently, and do according to all that the priests the Levites shall teach you: as I commanded them, so ye shall observe to do.

⁹ Remember what the Lord thy God did unto Miriam by the way, after that ye were come forth out of Egypt.

remember the stories of isaac's wife rebecah and how that was a pre arranged marriage per custom? that was well witnessed by abraham and also the serveant. when rebecah married isaac it wasnt some ok lets have sex. they celebrated. the canopy is old and its from abraham.

that isnt found in the bible then again neither is the aod per daniel either as that is known to the jews then by oral tradition of the maccabean accounts of the channukah miracle. why even channukah isnt mentioned either in the bible as to why but its mentioned that jesus did it. yet the early church would know the story of it. the same with marriage laws and the background.

jewish culture. its all over the tanach and much of its not mentioned directly. the reason i mention the wedding is that because John is a witness to the jewish messiah and acts like the best friend declaring the groom. is a very strong case for the wedding to be in the open and declared to all. jesus alluded to a wedding to the church and when he comes back the whole world will see it. and know it for his bride.

his marriage to the church isnt private so why would our marriages also be private?

elsewhere its mentioned of a dowry. why would a dowry be needed and even mentioned in the torah?

[jasoncran]

here ya go. read it and weep.

http://messianicfellowship.50webs.com/wedding.html

The coming of the Bridegroom and the Wedding Begins

Since the time of his arrival was a surprise - the bride and her bridal party were always to be ready - this is the background of Yeshua's parable (Mat. 25:1-13). It was customary for one of the grooms party to go ahead of the bridegroom, leading the way to the bride's house - and shout - "Behold, the bridegroom comes." This would be followed by the sounding of the shofar. At the sounding of the shofar the entire wedding processional would go through the streets of the city to the bride's house. The groomsmen would again set up the huppah:

• Again the couple would say a blessing over the cup of wine.
  
• The ceremony finalized the promises and vows.
  
  The pinnacle of this joyful celebration was the marriage supper:
  • It was much more than just a sit down dinner for all the guests.
    
  • It included seven full days of food, music, dance and celebration - (Jn. 14:10-12).
    
  • After the festivities the husband was free to bring his bride to their new home to live together as husband and wife in the full covenant of marriage.
    

  Messiah's Wedding - Still to Come

  Yeshua - told His disciples - that He did not know the day or hour of His return (Mat. 24:32-36) - this is not so much to say He does not have all knowledge - but as with any Jewish bridegroom - He must wait for His Father to give the word that the set time has come.

  As we noted before - in a traditional Jewish wedding - one of the groom's men would go before the arrival of the groom and shout - Behold the groom comes - should we expect anything less with the coming of our heavenly bridegroom? But where do we see such an event? - if we look to ( I Thess 4:16-18) we see that just prior to our Lord's we return - there will indeed be a shout - from one of the ruling angels - what might this angel shout, could it be - "Behold the groom comes?"

  We also saw that after this joyful proclamation of the groom's men there was in a traditional Jewish wedding the joyful sounding of the shofar. Will this happen when our Lord returns to receive His bride? If we continue reading the description of our Lord's future wedding in (I Thess 4:16-18) we see there also - the sounding of the shofar in annunciation of His return.

  At the sounding of the shofar the entire wedding processional would go through the streets of the city to the bride's house - but where is this wedding processional at Yeshua's coming wedding - again it is clearly pictured for us in (I Thess 4:16-18) - where all of Yeshua's wedding party is gathered together for the great wedding feast.

  The pinnacle of the Jewish wedding was the joyful celebration of the marriage supper - this too is a facet of our Lord's soon coming wedding (Rev 19:7-9).

  One last question needs to be raised - who is the bride of Yeshua?

  [*]From the passage in Hosea (2:19-20) it is clear that Israel is the Bride of God.

  [*]Yet the Newer Covenant Scriptures tell us that the "church" is the bride of Messiah.

  [*]Does God have two brides? Is He a polygamist? No!

  [*]Or, is it possible as some have suggested, God divorced one bride - Israel, to marry another - the church? That cannot be - for God has told us He hates divorce (Mal 2:16) and Jeremiah affirms God's everlasting covenant with the physical people Israel (Jer 31:35-37). This too is affirmed by Paul in (Rom 9-11).

  [*]The best solution then is - to affirm the fact that God has always had one bride - His chosen people Israel. This has been enlarged to include those grafted in to Israel (Rom 11:17) , the gentile believers.

  The Eyrusin - or Betrothal

  What is Eyrusin?

  The word eyrusin means - Betrothal. The period is also called - kiddushim - meaning "sanctification" or "set apart." This word really defines the purpose of the betrothal period - it is a time in which the couple are to set side to prepare themselves to enter into the covenant of marriage. The Jewish understanding of betrothal has always been much stronger than our modern understanding of an engagement. The betrothal was so binding that the couple would need a religious divorce or (get) in order to annul the contract (Deut. 24:1-4). This option was only available to the husband, as the wife had no say in any divorce proceeding - this point will be very important when we view the spiritual implications later.

  Aspects of the Betrothal

  After the couple had undergone - Mikveh hwqm (immersion) , each separately, they would appear together under the Huppah - or canopy - and in public they would express their intention of becoming betrothed or engaged. From ancient times - the wedding canopy has been a symbol of a new household being planned - (Ps. 19:5; Joel 2:16). While under the Huppah the couple participated in a ceremony in which some items of value were exchanged - such as rings, and a cup of wine was shared to seal the betrothal vows. After the ceremony - the couple was considered to have entered into the betrothal agreement. This period was to last for one year. During this time the couple was considered married - yet did not have sexual relations - and continued to live separately until the end of the betrothal. We see this time of betrothal illustrated in the gospels as reflected in the lives of Yoseph and Miriam - (see Mat. 1:18-25).

[jasoncran]

its really beautiful. man i wish the church would teach this every time when they do the gospels then they would get the full pic.

[gdemoss]

ok so i guess they just make it up. the jews didnt have oral laws and the written nor any culture.

aish.com on marriage feasts. since im jewish i can ask my dad on this. i wasnt raised in the temple

http://www.aish.com/...m/48969841.html

http://www.chabad.or...-Procession.htm

i have read elsewhwere of the number of the escort with the groom and proclaiming him. and he does inspect the bride for spots and blemish.

deuteronomy 24

24 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

² And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

³ And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

⁴ Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

⁵ When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

⁶ No man shall take the nether or the upper millstone to pledge: for he taketh a man's life to pledge.

⁷ If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.

⁸ Take heed in the plague of leprosy, that thou observe diligently, and do according to all that the priests the Levites shall teach you: as I commanded them, so ye shall observe to do.

⁹ Remember what the Lord thy God did unto Miriam by the way, after that ye were come forth out of Egypt.

remember the stories of isaac's wife rebecah and how that was a pre arranged marriage per custom? that was well witnessed by abraham and also the serveant. when rebecah married isaac it wasnt some ok lets have sex. they celebrated. the canopy is old and its from abraham.

that isnt found in the bible then again neither is the aod per daniel either as that is known to the jews then by oral tradition of the maccabean accounts of the channukah miracle. why even channukah isnt mentioned either in the bible as to why but its mentioned that jesus did it. yet the early church would know the story of it. the same with marriage laws and the background.

jewish culture. its all over the tanach and much of its not mentioned directly. the reason i mention the wedding is that because John is a witness to the jewish messiah and acts like the best friend declaring the groom. is a very strong case for the wedding to be in the open and declared to all. jesus alluded to a wedding to the church and when he comes back the whole world will see it. and know it for his bride.

his marriage to the church isnt private so why would our marriages also be private?

elsewhere its mentioned of a dowry. why would a dowry be needed and even mentioned in the torah?

I agree that things have developed over time through tradition and culture but this does not make it necessary. As far as a biblical use of the term dowry, it was what a man paid for his bride to the father who was giving her in marriage. Whatever happened to change it to be defined as something opposite of that, I cannot say, but I do know that Satan is at work trying to turn all of scripture on its head through oral tradition and customs of peoples.

David paid a dowry of 200 foreskins.

Shechem offered a dowry for Dinah whom he had defiled.

And there is a dowry set to be paid for virgins in Exodus.

I will never look into current customs or traditions seeking to understand what God wants me to know about anything. Satan is busy deceiving the nations and destroying the very work of God through them. The Holocaust isn't even 100 years past and their are revisionists trying to say it never happened. I cannot under estimate the power of a lie. God only promised to protect his word. I simply see no evidence in scripture to suggest that a man and woman need anything other than a covenant agreement with each other to be married and said covenant is sealed through the act of consummation. Believe what you will. We ought to agree to disagree and move on.

Gary

[jasoncran]

yes but it was recongnised as a culture which when isreal became a theocracy and a monarchy it was recognised by god. remember basic anthropology. if its moree then it will become a law. that is what we see here.

otherwise concubine isnt a sin. witnesss must be able to verify if its a sin or not in the torah and if theres no dowry nor ceremony then its not a marriage. abraham had concubines.

[thomas t]

Hello Jason,

remember basic anthropology. if its mores then it will become a law. that is what we see here.

As Gary wanted to step out of this discussion, I feel somewhat entitled to step in. BTW, I changed one letter in my quotation of your posting for my personal understanding (non-native speeker, need to have clarity).

I have troubles with the style of erecting an argumentational line you are showing. You start with a "remember" as to indicate that what comes thereafter is just something to be remembered, as opposed to something for what proof is needed.

Collaborating in a human rights group, I can tell you that, according to my experiences, the very opposite is true. Laws are enacted to put a stop to a tradition. Look at FGM, states are finally agreeing to enact laws against that harmful tradition. In many cases, however, laws are not enacted and human rights work then deals with producing pressure so that laws finally will be enacted.

I don't see the things you are seeing.

Blessings,

Thomas

[GoldenEagle]

Look at FGM...

What is FGM?

[Godsmercyinus]

People say crazy things like, "Homosexuality is perfectly fine" or, "Nudism is free-body movement that brings you closer to God".

It's amazing how people willingly fall into this veil of deceit.

They also claim that "Nudism is pretty much non-sexual state of mind".

But that can't be true.

Because if that was the case, I wouldn't have horrible lustful urges that drive me to seek out pictures of nudism for sexual gratification. And I wouldn't feel shame in front of God for it, and I wouldn't feel like I'm driving myself away from God's embrace, dying.

This Culture of Death makes me think about that.

[jasoncran]

no. its the reverse. theres no need in ancient cultures to say that murder was wrong. just what was murder was defined uniformaly but in all case the cultures had them and then they coded them.

isreal countrary to most what gentiles say has oral traditions. these are how moses got the genesis account. its even hinted at in exodus. how else before the burning bush would Moses know of his people or that there were egyptians whom feared god etc?

yet isreal wasnt a national state then. they didnt have any written codes on marriages or so forth.

[thomas t]

What is FGM?

Female Genital Mutilation. I chose that example because it is part of the mores of ancient tribes. Not only of them, even in Germany we had a medicalized form of that some 100 years ago. Now, imigrants are bringing that custom in. Some people complain about the term because they say that it is already taking sides. This is why scientists, to my knowledge, refer to it as "genital cutting".

no. its the reverse. theres no need in ancient cultures to say that murder was wrong. just what was murder was defined uniformaly but in all case the cultures had them and then they coded them.

.. in Albania, for instance, there is blood vendetta, as far as I know. In the Bible, this is recorded, too:

Lamech said to his wives: “Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; you wives of Lamech, listen to what I say: I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for striking me. Gen 4:23

Have a good day,

Thomas