gdemoss Posted October 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light. The people of Sodom kept crying out asking God to come down and fix all the problems in their city....he did. He removed 4 people, one of which was lost anyway...and then he fixed the problem. Are you sure your going to be one of the four? Are you sure your not going to be one who was lost? Are you really sure you want him coming down here anytime soon to fix things? Consider Luke 12:35-48. How will you fare when he returns? How many believers do you think will be left to be caught up in the air? Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2012 Thank you for your observation of the order of trumpets and seals. I was more focused on Jesus coming the first time (For his body).............. The sixth seal darkens everything, the seventh gives silence for a half hour. The trumpets were BEFORE This................ John recorded the events as given to him. They do not fall into any particular order though. Example, is that REV 12 took place long before tribulation. Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And John saw seven Angels which stood before God, gives a indication that he is being shown something new, and a series of events. The reason is that the sixth seal completely removes the stars. It also removes the heavens, the sky, everything. The 4th trumpet does not, nor does the 4th Trumpet bring judgement. Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 1/3 part of the sun and moon now do not function as it did..... after the 4th Trumpet.......... This event can't occur after the 6th seal!!! Because after the sixth seal there are no stars, the moon is completely dark, and the sun is already a deep, dark blood red. It has gone out and gives no light. If the 4th trumpet occurs after this, then it will effect nothing as nothing is there to effect. The sixth seal- End of Tribulation and the coming of Jesus-Judgement. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. Judgement time.............. Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: So............ The 4 trumpet happens before as 1/3 of the function to the sun and moon are given. The Sixth seal brings the coming of Jesus. The seals occur through Tribulation, the seventh trumpet blowing, the seventh seal released with complete silence upon the earth and darkness. Then with brilliant light and Glory the whole earth shall see the coming of the Lord and Judgement. I have given 3 different witness (Scripture) to the sixth seal and it's place in Tribulation. I have given the effects of the sixth seal, and what happens right after that. I have given the effects of the 4 trumpet. I have compared them. My focus was not on the tribulation part though and my point was completely ignored to where I had to explain the events of tribulation, and sixth seal. My point was that Jesus is coming for his Church, before the tribulation period. Jesus Is Lord. I see that you have put a lot of time into your answer, but no matter how you try to put scripture together, nobody can remove the fact that scripture states very clearly: Revelation 8:1-2 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Never before in Revelation do we find God giving His angels the 7 trumpets to be blown, which brings in the judgments of those trumpets, where it starts in verse 7: The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up. I will agree that parts of Revelation are shadows of times past,as well as the future, this cannot be said for the Seals, Trumpets or Bowls. They follow each other in proper sequence since the end of one starts the next, except for the end of the bowls, where it is said "It is done". If anything, a misunderstanding of what is written in scripture pertaining to the 6th seal is more the case. Proper hermeneutics needs to in the forefront when studying scripture. If something does not sound right, it is because of our understanding. If scripture says in Revelation 6:13 that "the stars of heaven fell unto the earth", this does not mean every or all. If you would take notice, each judgment/plague builds upon the previous, meaning that the 7 seals are lesser than the 7 trumpets, which are lesser than the 7 bowls. Gods judgments are sequential in nature, not concurrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2012 I very clearly see your point OneLight: It makes complete sense. One thing that will help is that John was given a series of visions. In a vision, one setting and place can move quickly to the next. Each Vision would carry it's own topic. So, we can't always read the bible like we would a novel. The seven seals are the backdrop for the whole earth. They lay the foundation, and are just thrown in Rev 6. We see all of them, but the seventh. 1 seal one goes out to just conquer or start wars. 2 Seal one goes out to the whole earth to remove the peace from everyone.. A dark cloud, raining day feeling. 3 Seal removes prosperity from all the land. Possible to set up the Antichrist hording and buying system with the Mark. You don't have the Mark, you don't eat. 4 seal only effects 1/4 of the earth. death, hunger and using beast to kill. 5 seal is the alter of souls... How much longer Lord? 6 seal completely wipes out all man knew about the stars, moon and sun.. everything goes dark. This is the Event Jesus mentioned to his coming matt 24, it's Judgment (Isa 34:4) the people know after this, they will see the face of Jesus.. Rev 6:16 7 Seal brings silence......... 1/2 hour setting the stage for something big. It's not that long, and right after the 6th seal. Now these seals are lumped in REV:6..... They occur though tribulation and set the whole earth tone as the war, famine, no peace cover the whole earth. Trumpets.... The Trumpets also occur during the time the seals are released but before the 6th seal. The Seals set the whole earth mood and tone, the trumpets effect only certain parts of the earth, or 1/3 of the earth. So the seals are the events or stage so to speak, and the trumpets are the show. They only effect parts. John is giving us what he see's, that is all...It's not a novel where things are in order for us. These are visions. so....... this trumpet..... the fourth one...... Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. This can't occur "AFTER" the sixth seal. It's just part of the show of events. It only effects the moon, sun by 1/3. The sixth seal completely darkens everything permanently. I also gave 3 scriptures connected to the six seal that bring Jesus and Judgement time. one the seventh angelic trumpet, the sixth seal is released, and all the stars vanish as rolled up in a scroll, the moon and sun go out, the seventh is released, and nothing but darkness and no sound for 1/2 hour. This sets the stage for the great coming of the Lord. Then great brilliance fills the earths atmosphere and Jesus is coming. It's judgement time. All that sounds good, but we have not covered if Jesus comes for the Church before all this..... that seems to be the concern, and must be important. Be blessed..OneLight... Jesus Is Lord. If what I have said makes sense, than why is it that you go back to argue that the trumpets are blown during the time the seals are opened? It is plain as day that the 7th seal ushers in the beginning of the 7 trumpets. They cannot be before or during that time. Let me point once again to where I find error in your statements by showing you Revelation 8:1-2 "When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. " These two verses do not show John being removed from one vision to beginning another vision, as we find in Revelations 7:1, when it switches from the first 6 seals to a new vision. Revelation 8:1-2 is a complete, uninterpreted vision, the same vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall7 Posted October 17, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,385 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 491 Days Won: 5 Joined: 04/25/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2012 . MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The part I high lighted sounds like an eclipse followed by a meteor shower to me. Doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted October 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Rapture related: OK, I guess I have never really read in context what Paul was writing to the Thessalonian believers. He tells them that this event of the catching up happens as part of the day of the Lord. And though we don't know the times or seasons it doesn't come upon us as a thief if we are not walking in darkness. I find this truly amazing. I was walking in darkness up until ten years ago, then began a rigorous training in repentance that netted a belief in the gospel followed by more strenuous action of seeking the Lord for sanctification and lo and behold, I have been quickly understanding that that day is almost upon us. Poor pretribbers are going to get a big surprise. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted October 18, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Rapture related: OK, I guess I have never really read in context what Paul was writing to the Thessalonian believers. He tells them that this event of the catching up happens as part of the day of the Lord. And though we don't know the times or seasons it doesn't come upon us as a thief if we are not walking in darkness. I find this truly amazing. I was walking in darkness up until ten years ago, then began a rigorous training in repentance that netted a belief in the gospel followed by more strenuous action of seeking the Lord for sanctification and lo and behold, I have been quickly understanding that that day is almost upon us. Poor pretribbers are going to get a big surprise. Gary Gary seems you have misunderstood what Paul was saying ,,he did not say it was anything to do with the day of the Lord Thess 4 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not come before them which are asleep. 6 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Thess 5 5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, w who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. what he is saying is that children of the light have learned to expect what is to come ,,whereby those who do not seek the Lord are in darkness being unaware about what is about to happen and they do not accept what children of the light tell them so they go about getting drunk and partying have no idea of what is about to happen Corinthians 15 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. It has been shown that scripture has also point blank stated that the voice of God sounds like a loud trumpet ,,it may well be Gods voice calling people to be caught up into the clouds rapture calls the church up into the clouds not to the earth 2nd coming is the day of the Lord which is when LORD Jesus comes down to earth WITH the born again saints that accepted Christ before he comes to earth 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Daniel, you keep thinking that. Watch and pray. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 18, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2012 OneLight: These two verses do not show John being removed from one vision to beginning another vision, as we find in Revelations 7:1, when it switches from the first 6 seals to a new vision. Revelation 8:1-2 is a complete, uninterpreted vision, the same vision. I get your point........ but my point was that each trumpet effects 1/3 of the earth, and the 4 can't happen if that sixth seal is released first. Also all the stars in the sixth seal are GONE... so no 4th trumpet. so the seals and trumpets have to be together as all the events go that way. Also the sixth seal is the only seal that has judgment and the coming of Jesus connected, so the six seal has to be around that seventh trumpet. right? It would appear Johns vision went uninterrupted, but chapter and verse were added later, we have the way it was translated to contend with and I don't think this one reads like a novel because the scriptures don't compare and match up. We need stars to have a 4th trumpet, and they go away after the sixth seal.... I think comparing line upon line would be better in this case. However........... what about Jesus coming for the Church before all this? The rest don't matter as much, if we are not even here, right? I think that discussion is important to lots of people. be blessed. Jesus Is Lord. No, my friend, the 6th bowl does not mean that every single star in heaven was cast down to the earth. Every star out there are many many times larger than the earth. There would absolutely be no earth left after the first one fell. This fact proves that it is your understanding of the 6th seal needs to be reviewed. I would agree with a meteor shower, but never a star. This would also explain why the sun goes into what sounds like an eclipse and why there was such a great earthquake. Correcting your understanding of these events will help you see the truth that these events fall into the timeline scripture writes it in and not one that man has developed. To be honest, I have studied what you believe many years ago and found it not true then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 18, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2012 Years ago, before 1984, when I also believed in the Pre-Tribulation rapture, one part of this theory leaned heavily on the "thief in the night" meaning it was a secret event where only the believers knew it was happening and the lost had no idea, just as a thief sneaks around in silence to do the deed he is there to do. Further studies convinced me that this was not true, since it did not fit the rest of scripture. I know understand that this means that the rapture will happen when nobody expects it to happen, just like the thief comes when you don't think he will come, otherwise, one would be ready for him when he appeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted October 19, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Years ago, before 1984, when I also believed in the Pre-Tribulation rapture, one part of this theory leaned heavily on the "thief in the night" meaning it was a secret event where only the believers knew it was happening and the lost had no idea, just as a thief sneaks around in silence to do the deed he is there to do. Further studies convinced me that this was not true, since it did not fit the rest of scripture. I know understand that this means that the rapture will happen when nobody expects it to happen, just like the thief comes when you don't think he will come, otherwise, one would be ready for him when he appeared. Another misunderstanding is when people try to say the "theif in the night" scripture is the rapture ,, no it is not speaking of the rapture ,, that is in reference to the 2nd coming not rapture....as per so often people who do not want to use ALL scripture related to the rapture get a misunderstanding ,, it has been proven repeatedly what scriptures there are about the rapture . and it has as always been ignored by those who Prefer to believe otherwise ,,, I still challenge anyone to Prove differently ,, but no one does because they refuse to take in ALL scripture about the rapture and use scripture not pertaining to it at all Nobody can prove you wrong if you will not receive the reproof. 1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the first resurrection as spoken of in Revelation) 1Th 4:17 Then (places the timing of the next event after the first resurrection) we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Let him who has ears to hear, hear the simple straight forward message of the scriptures. Let him who has a computer cut/paste as much as he wills to rearrange the scriptures to say what they want them too. Of course anyone with a good imagination can explain away this catching up as not being the rapture or put a number of years between the catching up and the day of the Lord's return. I will simply stick to reading it as written. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted October 19, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Years ago, before 1984, when I also believed in the Pre-Tribulation rapture, one part of this theory leaned heavily on the "thief in the night" meaning it was a secret event where only the believers knew it was happening and the lost had no idea, just as a thief sneaks around in silence to do the deed he is there to do. Further studies convinced me that this was not true, since it did not fit the rest of scripture. I know understand that this means that the rapture will happen when nobody expects it to happen, just like the thief comes when you don't think he will come, otherwise, one would be ready for him when he appeared. Another misunderstanding is when people try to say the "theif in the night" scripture is the rapture ,, no it is not speaking of the rapture ,, that is in reference to the 2nd coming not rapture....as per so often people who do not want to use ALL scripture related to the rapture get a misunderstanding ,, it has been proven repeatedly what scriptures there are about the rapture . and it has as always been ignored by those who Prefer to believe otherwise ,,, I still challenge anyone to Prove differently ,, but no one does because they refuse to take in ALL scripture about the rapture and use scripture not pertaining to it at all Nobody can prove you wrong if you will not receive the reproof. 1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the first resurrection as spoken of in Revelation) 1Th 4:17 Then (places the timing of the next event after the first resurrection) we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Let him who has ears to hear, hear the simple straight forward message of the scriptures. Let him who has a computer cut/paste as much as he wills to rearrange the scriptures to say what they want them too. Of course anyone with a good imagination can explain away this catching up as not being the rapture or put a number of years between the catching up and the day of the Lord's return. I will simply stick to reading it as written. Gary Amen!!!! Gary I quoted your post so no one would miss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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