The Sabbath

[SDAinFLA]

Word, sorry I didn't respond to you earlier, but I will not have internet for the next couple of weeks so I will try to reply to you at work when possible.

Thanks for you response. I agree with most of it, but I have at least one question on your response.

They rejected the gift, as God knew they would so they continue in the perpetual sign of the Sabbath until the veil is lifted and they are able to see.

God says "It [the Sabbath] is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever." Exodus 31:17

If the 'rest' that Israel was supposed to come into involved the doing away with the Sabbath, then how come God said that the Sabbath is sign that lasts forever for Israel?

[SDAinFLA]

Didn't the disciples meet at one time a to discuss this very matter?

I believe they concluded that the Gentiles should not be held to the Jewish observances such as sacrifices, feasts, circumcision, et al.

Ted, you make an excellent point and I agree with you except in regards to the Sababth.

When the disciples had this conversation, the 7th day Sabbath wasn't in question, but rather the Law of Moses and the law of circumcision. [But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Acts 15:5]

So whether we believe the Sabbath was done away with depends on how you view the Sabbath. I view the Sabbath as still part of the 10 commandments, which animal sacrifices, circumcision, cerimonial sabbath days, or feast days were not included as part of the 10 commandments.

I do agree with you that sacrifices, feasts, circumcision were done, but I just believe that the 7th day Sabbath was a different ballpark.

[Arthur Durnan]

SDAinFLA....Better, I believe, EGHWinFLA - Well, it's been known for a very long time that those kind folk who espouse the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath have long wished to keep away from the egregiously erroneous tenets taught by SDA's founderm Ellen Gould Harmon White. I also noticed that you preferred not to discuss her fallacious thots about the "investigative judgment" 1844, Satan as scapegoat, etc, etc. and, too, the ant-meat emphasis (for religious reasons, or what SHE thot were biblical reasons) in direct opposition to the Holy Bible in 1 Timothy 4:3,4 & Colossians 2:16,23. Try as one may, the keeping of the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath is PRIME EGHW TEACHING even tho it would be absolutely impossible to "keep" the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath if one were to fly across the International Date Line on a Friday! And THAST would make for a whole pile of DEATH PENALTIES for disregarding Mosaic law!! It's all fairly hard, without an anesthetic, to contemplate Judaic ceremonial law being imposed on the Christian Church of Jesus Christ, Great Liberator of the people! "Stand fast in the LIBERTY wherewith Christ has set us free!" AMEN & AMEN!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[SDAinFLA]

I also noticed that you preferred not to discuss her fallacious thots about the "investigative judgment" 1844, Satan as scapegoat, etc, etc. and, too, the ant-meat emphasis (for religious reasons, or what SHE thot were biblical reasons) in direct opposition to the Holy Bible in 1 Timothy 4:3,4 & Colossians 2:16,23.

I believe in the investigative judgement, and that we are better off not eating meat than eating meat...and those other doctrines.

My only problem is that this forum is in regards to the Sabbath and that's what people view this forum to look at. I try to stay within the subject or question that has been asked. You're all over the place man!

...I advise that you should create a forum for a topic that you would like to discuss and then I can give you my reasons for that particular question.

Again, thanks for your replies, but please try to keep working on your responses so that it doesn't appear that you are picking on the person. Remember, witnessing is supposed to win souls to Christ.

Try as one may, the keeping of the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath is PRIME EGHW TEACHING even tho it would be absolutely impossible to "keep" the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath if one were to fly across the International Date Line on a Friday! And THAST would make for a whole pile of DEATH PENALTIES for disregarding Mosaic law!!

The date line? Are you serious? I don't even know how to respond...I mean...Currently on Sunday in China it could be Sabbath in America...so that would mean that Chinese Christians are worshipping on Sabbath.

Arthur...unfortunately the Bible doesn't metion the date line, so if you have an issue with that then you will have to talk with God...He created time.

Edited March 1, 2005 by SDAinFLA

[Arthur Durnan]

SDAinFLA, better EGHWinFLA, you're slippin' and slidin', I fear, re EGHW. Don't you quite understand that people who by the unscriptural designation as such (of "SDA") certainly DO INDEED believe Ellen Gould Harmon White's teachings - even to the extent of being almost on a par with the Apostle Paul? Yes, I can well understand why you wish to bypass Ellen Gould Harmon White's declarations because she continually sought to bring people back to Judaic law & the Old Covenant including "Satan as scapegoat", the 1844 "investigative judgment," and, of course, the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath given EXCLUSIVELY to the people of ISRAEL - EXODUS 31:13,16,17 (WHY DENY IT?) - and NOT the Church of Jesus Christ at all.

And your quik, curt response re 'meat" failed to comprehend God's Word on the issue. Why? Did you take time to peruse Colossians 2:16 and 1 Timothy 4:1-5? If one wishes to refrain from meat, fine. But please do not tell anyone that you do such because of BIBLICAL TEACHING lest they think you are Jewish. I'm sorry that you really fluffed off these dynamic truths in Colossians & 1 Timothy. Any outstanding reason? EGHW again.

"Speak thou unto the children of ISRAEL, saying, Verily My Sabbaths YE (IE, ISRAEL, NOT THE CHURCH) shall keep; FOR IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND YOU (ISRAEl, NOT THE CHURCH) throughout YOUR (IE, ISRAEL) generations, that YE (ISRAEL) may know that I am the Lord Who doth sanctify YOU (IE, ISRAEL, NOT THE CHURCH)." Exodus 31:13. How dare one refer God's SPECIAL sign for ISRAEL to somebody else?

And Hosea 2:11 is pure dynamite for adherents of EGHW. "I will cause all HER (ISRAEL'S) mirth to CEASE, her feast days, hernew moons, AND HER (ISRAEL'S) SABBATHS. Did Jehovah God follow thru on His promise? Did He put an END to Jewish Sabbath-keeping? He certainly did....Look at Matthew 28:1 - "In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene & the other Mary to see the sepulchre." In the Greek, this verse literally reads: "AT THE END OF THE SABBATHS (IE, THE OLD JEWISH SABBATHS) - "sabbaton," genitive plural in the Greek - did you hear that? PLURAL!, as it began to dawn toward the first day of sabbaths (sabbaton - the very same word here translated sabbath), came Mary Magdalene..."

The very clear & concise teaching of Matthew 28:1 is that when Jesus arose from the dead the old Jewish sabbaths CAME CRASHING TO AN END as predicted by the Prophet Hosea (700 B.C.)! The Septuagint (the oldest Greek version of the Old Testament) was translated from the Hebrew about 275 B.C. by 70 Hebrew scholars. In every passage in the Septuagint where the word "weeks" occurs, the Greek word is always "hebdomas." See Numbers 28:26; Daniel 9:24-26; 10:2,3; etc.), "Two weeks" is expressed as "dis hepta hemeras," OR "twice seven days"; but in NO instance is "sabbaton" or "sabbata" used for week. In the entire spectrum of Greek literature the word for week is "hebdomas" and NEVER ONCE "sabbaton," or "sabbata," therefore the EGHW emphasis is shown to be in error. Matthew 28:1 is the concise fulfillment of Hosea 2:11 & should read thus: "At the end of Sabbaths (ie, mine: which Jehovah had predicted would be abolished back in Hosea 2:11), as it began to dawn toward the first day (hemeran, Greek) of Sabbaths, came Mary Magdalene..." No "pope" changed the Jewish Sabbath. Christians were actually worshipping on the FIRST day, the very Lord's Day, LONG BEFORE A ROMAN CATHOLIC "PAPACY" EVER EXISTED!

If you still insist along with Ellen Gould Harmon White & William Miller that "the pope" changed the Sabbath, pray tell us WHICH particular "pope"? And what was the specific date of change? NOWHERE in Holy Writ does it state - or even hint - that the keeping of the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath would be a "test of obedience" for God's people prior to Jesus' return. NOWHERE! It is the height of all fantasy on a par with the Whiffenpoof Song.

And if I may say, you are "playing dumb" with respect to the International Date Line and the VERY LOSS OF THE SABBATH DAY if one crosses that particular Pacific Ocean line on the Friday. How can one "keep" the entire Jewish Sabbath Day if one is flying across the I.D.L. in which one LOSES a day and therefore pronounces DEATH upon himself as required by Mosaic tenets for NOT keeping the Jewish Sabbath? Don't adherents of EGHW every fly to New Zealand (from, say, New York City or L.A.)? Give it good thot. Gee whiz, it all reminds me of a sign on a frog's T-shirt: "Time's Fun When You're Having Flies." EGHW & cohorts should get back into Holy Writ before time passes them by completely! Again, as Orville said to Wilbur, "You're Wright!"

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[SDAinFLA]

Speak thou unto the children of ISRAEL, saying, Verily My Sabbaths YE (IE, ISRAEL, NOT THE CHURCH) shall keep; FOR IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND YOU (ISRAEl, NOT THE CHURCH) throughout YOUR (IE, ISRAEL) generations, that YE (ISRAEL) may know that I am the Lord Who doth sanctify YOU (IE, ISRAEL, NOT THE CHURCH)." Exodus 31:13. How dare one refer God's SPECIAL sign for ISRAEL to somebody else?

Weren't all of the disciples Israelites? Wouldn't that mean that Paul, Peter, and the rest of the disciples remained Sabbath keepers? And didn't they start the church?

And Hosea 2:11 is pure dynamite for adherents of EGHW. "I will cause all HER (ISRAEL'S) mirth to CEASE, her feast days, hernew moons, AND HER (ISRAEL'S) SABBATHS. Did Jehovah God follow thru on His promise? Did He put an END to Jewish Sabbath-keeping? He certainly did....Look at Matthew 28:1 - "In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene & the other Mary to see the sepulchre." In the Greek, this verse literally reads: "AT THE END OF THE SABBATHS (IE, THE OLD JEWISH SABBATHS) - "sabbaton," genitive plural in the Greek - did you hear that? PLURAL!, as it began to dawn toward the first day of sabbaths (sabbaton - the very same word here translated sabbath), came Mary Magdalene..."

Arthur, you ever wonder why the Bible says "for that sabbath day was an high day." John 19:31

...did you know that there were ceremonial Sababths too? Well, if a ceremonial sabbath fell on the same day as the 7th Day Sabbath then it was called a high Sabbath. I believe this is plural because of both Sabbaths...but correct me if I'm wrong...you are saying that this verse is regarding the doing away of the Sabbath? To me it means what it says...end of the Sabbath; Just like...end of the year. Maybe we can do more research on this, but I think you're probably putting more into this than was intended.

If you still insist along with Ellen Gould Harmon White & William Miller that "the pope" changed the Sabbath, pray tell us WHICH particular "pope"? And what was the specific date of change? NOWHERE in Holy Writ does it state - or even hint - that the keeping of the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath would be a "test of obedience" for God's people prior to Jesus' return. NOWHERE! It is the height of all fantasy on a par with the Whiffenpoof Song.

I do insist that it was changed by the Pope. American Heritage dictionary says "In a.d. 321 Constantine the Great grafted the Hellenistic astrological system onto the Roman calendar, making the first day of the week a day of rest and worship ..." http://www.bartleby.com/61/80/W0078000.html (Mid-paragraph)

Arthur, the scriptures don't have to say exactly "the Sabbath is going to be a test"

Did God tell Adam and Eve that a snake was going to try to deceive them into sinning? No He told them to stay away from the tree. He didn't have to tell them what the test would be.

In the same token, God said to keep His commandments...if the test for humanity is the Sabbath...He doesn't have to tell us anything...He's already told us to keep His commandments.

I'm sorry you believe I am playing dumb in regards to the date line thing...but the answer is simple. If you live in Japan and it's Sabbath...why would I worry about what time it is in another location.

Also, you should know that SDA's don't believe in Moses laws. We do however believe in the 10 Commandments which the Sabbath is part of it...if we did believe in the other laws...I probably would've been stoned by now!

[Arthur Durnan]

They were indeed Jews - but we're not. The Apostle Paul clearly indicated that ALL Sabbaths were done away, not some & excluding the Jewish seventh-day sabbath. In fact, as I've already stated, the Apostle Paul links all sabbaths with new moons, etc., but we do not attach biblical significance to such Jewish festivals today. Do you celebrate Yom Kippur? Your problem is that you strive as an adherent of Ellen Gould Harmon White's teachings to separate what the Apostle Paul refers to as "the law" (singular) into various parts (more than one) which, of course, the Apostle does not allow for. Ceremonial, judicial & moral were all part of the one Mosaic code. And the Apostle assures us that it - the one Mosaic code - was "nailed to the cross of Christ".

Your look at the Int. Date Line didn't take into account that in crossing such a line on a Friday evening would cause anadherent of the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath to LOSE COMPLETELY the possibility of celebrating & carefully observing the 24-hour seventh-day, ie, the Jewish Sabbath. Maybe that doesn't bother you but the penalty for any failure to observe the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath is DEATH. You still think one can fail to observe the Jewish seventh-day - and not be punished! Wrong! It is fallacious to think that you can keep the day but not the penalty for breaking such. You forgot Exodus 31:15. And, of course, fires on in houses are also banned by Moses' code! Penalty again is DEATH! Doesn't it get fairly cool each evening even in Beautiful Florida this time of year? GOOD-BY SDAinFLA!

Well, as I clearly pointed out to you - but it seems to have flown on by - the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath was indeed an integral part of the Mosdaic code as plainly enunciated in Exodus 31:13, etc and given SPECIFICALLY TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL AS A SPECIAL SIGN BETWEEN JEHOVAH AND HIS PEOPLE IN THE NATION OF ISRAEL. It is foolish to deny that Jehovah gave this to Israel alone when He says that is what He did. WHY DO YOU REFRAIN FROM UNDERSCORING SUCH CLEAR BIBLICAL STATEMENTS AS IN DEUT. 5:3 AND NEHEMIAH 9:13,14 which state that the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath was a COVENANT made by Jehovah God WITH "OUR FATHERS." IE, ISRAELIS?

It's also regrettable that your kind folk in Florida kinda stay away from the Apostle Paul's plain pronouncement - AND TIME-LINE - re the Mosaic code: The law was added "till the seed should come" - AND GUESS WHO "THE SEED" IS! Check Galatians 3:19; cf. 3:16. If Jesus Christ has abolished in His Flesh, by His death upon the cross, the "law of commandments" (Ephesians 2:15), then this particular 19th-century philosophy known - without one mention in Holy Writ of this term - since EGHW as "Seventh-day Adventism" and calling Christians back to the Mosaic code & the Old Covenant Jehovah established with the Jewish people, deserves loving burial in the interests, quite correctly, of biblical truth & spiritual progress.

When one strives to follow Ellen Gould Harmon White and takes upon himself a 19th-century religious designation such as "Seventh-day Adventist," a term TOTALLY FOREIGN to the New Testament, one should be brot to task for it. As for the "Roman popes changing the day," I've already pointed out to you that the disciples & followers of Jesus were celebrating & worshipping on the FIRST DAY, the true Lord's Day, long before anyone heard about the Roman invention called the "papacy." Sorry, but Constantine came into the picture far too late!

The Kingdom of Christ - as opposed to the Nation of Israel - was established at Pentecost (Acts 2:1), which always fell on "the morrow after the Sabbath" (Lev. 23:15,16) - always ON THE LORD'S DAY, SUNDAY. The True Church of Christ - NEVER ONCE REFERRED TO AS "SEVENTH-SAY ADVENTISTS" - started out meeting for worship on the FIRST day of the week (Acts 2:42). The disciples at Troas "were gathered together" upon the "first day of the week" to break bread & worship (Acts20:7). The Cornithian Christians (1 Cor.16:2) were assembling & contributing into the church treasury, "every FIRST day of the week."

And please don't get me started on Ellen Gould Harmon Whiteism again or we'll be back in her morass of "1844 investigative judgment" (UNKNOWN IN SCRIPTURE); "Satan as scapegoat in Lev. 16" - (UNKNOWN IN SCRIPTURE); "Annihilationism at death, then re-creation, then final annihilationism" (UNKNOWN IN SCRIPTURE); Her placing of the Jewish Sabbath on a separate level (UNKNOWN IN SCRIPTURE) when Jehovah lumped it together with new moons, Jewish festivals and abolished them all! You must cease your striving to lead people back into Mosaic customs & practices thru a 19th-century unscriptural grouping known as "SDAism." The bottom line is that Ellen Gould Harmon White was a self-styled false prophetess of the first degree. Her whims and nostrums fail to stand the test of Holy Writ.

The Epistle to the Galatians is certainly the Magna Carta of Christian Liberty & Truth with respect to the Judaic legalism espoused by your 19th-century founder. Time will be well spent at http://www.sdaoutreach.org AMEN!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Guest stardust]

Is this not true? . . . Approximately 2500 years before the law was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai, God set apart the seventh day and called it holy. The sabbath was not given to Israel only; it is given to mankind! I love shabbat . . . it is my most favorite day of the week!

[wordsower]

Stardust,

I'd prefer fellowship with you or SDAinFLA anyday over Arthur---dude, you're just RUDE!

Remember, the commandment Jesus left, Love your neighbor as yourself. Hmmm, in that ALL the law is fulfilled. So, how many souls have you led to the grace of Jesus?

Anywho.......

Stardust, if you love the Sabbath and it makes you closer to Jesus, then by all means, keep it. If you think it's going to save you, don't bother.---not saying that you do.

I believe that God instituted a perfect rest at creation that would be broken by sin and later reinstated through the blood of Jesus. Israel still doesn't have Jesus so they have the shadow until He returns and there is no more night, just the light of Jesus. Guess we'll have a hard time debating days of the week then, hu?

One man esteems one day above another--that is you, another esteems everyday alike--that's me, let each be fully convinced in his own man and the Lord will make each able to stand.

In the SDA churches I grew up in I was constantly told how the Sunday keepers (of which I learned there were no such thing) were ignorant, pitiful, deceived and "we" were superior in knowledge and above everyone else.

That is a pharisee spirit and we know where that landed them.

Unity of beleivers in one faith, one Lord, one baptism and we will all see Christ!

Good to meet you

[wordsower]

Word, sorry I didn't respond to you earlier, but I will not have internet for the next couple of weeks so I will try to reply to you at work when possible.

Thanks for you response. I agree with most of it, but I have at least one question on your response.

They rejected the gift, as God knew they would so they continue in the perpetual sign of the Sabbath until the veil is lifted and they are able to see.

God says "It [the Sabbath] is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever." Exodus 31:17

If the 'rest' that Israel was supposed to come into involved the doing away with the Sabbath, then how come God said that the Sabbath is sign that lasts forever for Israel?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I didn't see this.

The Sabbath is a sign for Israel for all generations because God knew that they would reject Jesus. 2000 years later it still is true and prophetic. Each covenant has a sign, don't have time to list them all, but you know, rainbow, land, etc...the sign for the believer is the Holy Spirit and Israel has not received Him.