The Sabbath

[Guest yod]

The 10 Commandments are soooooo outdated.

He doesn't expect anyone but those jews to actually pay attention to the first half of the Bible, does He?

I mean, c'mon.....get real.

He woudn't want to cramp our style...He's our buddy!

[wordsower]

Well then, Yod, I guess you've already sacrificed your goat for this morning, or is that a bull? I can't remember because the law wasn't for the righteous.

[Guest yod]

There is no Temple nor Levitical priest....so it would be against the law to do that.

According to Ezekial, the Messiah Himself will re-institute that in the millennium though.

Is it because He is unrighteous?

[Guest shiloh357]

There is no Temple nor Levitical priest....so it would be against the law to do that.

According to Ezekial, the Messiah Himself will re-institute that in the millennium though.

Is it because He is unrighteous?

[Guest yod]

Just for clarity sake, neither Shiloh nor I think that a righteousness of the law is anything. Yuck! We deal with those kind of folks and it ain't pretty.

On the other hand, to think that each man is a law unto himself is equally as wrong. There is a standard of holiness that no one lives up to, but it's still the standard we hope to attain.

God has not changed His mind about what is good and what is not.

[Guest shiloh357]

I would also add that I do not support compulsive Sabbath observance. I am not saying that we HAVE to keep the Sabbath.

The point is that it is TRUE that Yeshua is our Sabbath. However it is NOT true that Yeshua as our Sabbath, replaces the biblical Sabbath. That is biblically indefensible. I think we can get into a ditch on either side of the road if we say that one must observe the Sabbath or that the Sabbath has been done away with. Neither can be supported by Scripture, and both are extreme points of view.

My position which I can defend with tons of Scripture, is that while the Sabbath, and Festivals are not done away with, there is no condemnation for those believers who do necessarily incorporate them into their way of life. None of the Torah has been abrogated. It would make no sense if it were. God would be a liar if the Sabbath were abolished, or exchanged for something else.

The Sabbath is a picture of Messiah. That is true. The Sabbath and all the Festivals serve as pictures of Messiah. It does not follow though, that since Messiah has come the pictures can be thrown out.

I have pictures of someone I care about very much. I had the pics for a while before we met, and since we have met, the pics did not become less valuable, they became MORE valuable. The same with Yeshua. The coming of Messiah did not render the Sabbath irrelevant, nor diminish its importance. The Sabbath and indeed, all of the Torah has increased in valuable. I understand it more, and the Sabbath is more meaningful when I observe it with the full understanding and import that God placed into it. Yeshua is the fullness of the Sabbath and indeed the whole Torah. The Torah, according to Paul in Colossians 2, is just a sketch of what is to come, and Yeshua is the fullness, or the reality of that sketch.

The problem is that the Torah does not just prophesy of Yeshua's first coming, it is also prophesying of His second coming and the Millennium as well. Therefore the Torah is not done serving as a picture of the Messiah. Yeshua has not yet fulfilled all the types and shadows that pertain to him. There is still over 1,000 years of fulfilling left to go.

[wordsower]

No one is refuting that there is a law or that Christ wont rule the world with the government on His shoulders during the millineum. (Well, actually, there are a lot of folks disputing that, just not me.)

Can I suggest another thought here?

If I am raised to the newness of life, have a living Spirit in me, instead of the dead one I came here with, for what reason do I need the law?

We also read in Isaiah that there will be death and child bearing along with the absence of war and the lion and the lamb getting along. Are we going to die during the millineum? I don't think you beleive that, so then, what exactly is your position of what exactly we will be during the millineum?

Please read 1 Cor. 15 and I think it explains exactly!!

We are not the humans being instructed by the law during the Millineum. We are priests and kings, ruling and reigning with Christ! We have the everlasting Rest. We have incorruptible bodies, we are not flesh and blood. We are of the kingdom of God and flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Does any of this make sense at all?

We have the fruits of the Spirit: Love, peace, joy, ......self control---of which there is no law. Why? Because we are one with Christ. I'm not suggesting a law unto ones self, I am reinterating that we are under the submission of the Holy Ghost and His guidance surpasses the simplicity of the law.The reality of things unseen surpasses the physical. The spiritual is everlasting, the physical is perishing, corruptible/incorruptible.

Can you see the difference in the natural and the spiritual?

To me, the idea of a day of the week to do something different than the other six, divides my life into secular vs. religious. I'm convicted that I should do all to the Glory of God all 7 days. I can't imagine anything in my life that I would want to put on the secular list, as if I'm taking a break from my Rest. My Rest is "Today" and tomorrow it will be "Today". It's spiritual, a Rest of complete peace in Jesus. If I didn't have that everyday I would surely have lost my mind by now.

I do totally understand where you both are coming from, just wish you could try to see my point of view.

[Guest shiloh357]

If I am raised to the newness of life, have a living Spirit in me, instead of the dead one I came here with, for what reason do I need the law?

It is not a matter of NEEDING the Torah. That is not the point. My point is simply that some people are wrong for saying that Sabbath observance is compulsory, and that it is absolutely necessary. I am also saying that you are wrong for saying that Yeshua REPLACES the Sabbath, because the Scriptures do not say that. That is something YOU are penciling in. Both points of view are incorrect, because neither can be supported by Scripture. Yeshua is our rest, and we can rest in Him and keep the Sabbath. We are not violating our rest in Yeshua if we keep the seventh day of the week Sabbath.

The Sabbath cannot be abolished because it is given as an everlasting covenant to Israel. Therefore as long as ONE Jew is still living on this earth, the Sabbath is still in existence. It was a covenant with the Jewish people and those who sought to join themselves to the physical nation of Israel.

If you don't want to keep the Sabbath, that is your perogative, and is between you and God. I don't really care, in one sense, about what you do or don't do, regarding the Sabbath. What I DO care about, is the implication that those who do observe the Sabbath are somehow doing something wrong, or are under legalism, or something like that.

To me, the idea of a day of the week to do something different than the other six, divides my life into secular vs. religious.

That's what the Sabbath is a picture of. It is a picture of separation. Just like tithing separates a part of your income as belonging to God. The Sabbath is a day set aside to live as if the Millennium has already come. We rest from secular labors, jobs, laundry, yard work, etc. and have a 24 hour period totally dedicated to God with nothing else to distract us from Him.

I'm convicted that I should do all to the Glory of God all 7 days.

Yes you should, and that is fine. That is what we should all do.

I can't imagine anything in my life that I would want to put on the secular list, as if I'm taking a break from my Rest.

Like I said, if you don't want to keep the Sabbath, then that is fine, just don't tell anyone else that they are somehow diminishing their rest in Yeshua by keeping the Sabbath, because they aren't.

I do totally understand where you both are coming from, just wish you could try to see my point of view.

We have made the point on several occasions in the past, that we do not believe that Sabbath observance is compulsory. You keep trying to paint us as if we are saying that it is compulsory. I am not yet convinced that you understand our position.

[Guest yod]

why do you think we can't see your point of view?

I just don't think it is accurately communicating the torah's purpose in the life of a believer...and your eschatological views are skewed by that perspective as well.

The word translated as "Law" in the OT is "Torah" but it's actual literal definition is "teaching"

God's teaching is not made void by Yeshua is it? May it never be! We establish the Torah! (Paul's words)

The Spirit can not tell us to do anything opposed to the "torah" of God. That would be a contradiction. The distinction which needs to be made is that the Torah has an underlying eternal purpose even if some of the applications are extremely outdated because they were given to a specific people in a specific culture & time for a specific purpose. Yet, the reason for each decree, ordinance, and law has a literal interpretation and even the "torah" sections which we can not keep have a relevant application for today.

We can get caught up in the letter of the law if we aren't careful but that is not what I'm addressing. All I'm saying is that we don't get to pick and choose what is God's "torah" (teaching) on a whim.

So you might say that you are keeping the "spirit" of the Sabbath by being in Messiah or by taking Sunday off but that doesn't mean that God has changed His mind about what or when the Sabbath is.

Are we going to die during the millineum?

yes....some will.

We are not the humans being instructed by the law during the Millineum. We are priests and kings, ruling and reigning with Christ!

ALL will be under the rule of Messiah when the Torah goes forth from Zion. We may be ruling with him....we may be priests with Him....but what will be doing if not enforcing His "torah"?

[wordsower]

We are not violating our rest in Yeshua if we keep the seventh day of the week Sabbath.

Absolutely agreed!

See, we CAN agree on something! I have posted MANY, MANY times, Romans 14, one observes one day, another every day alike, LET EACH BE FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND, GOD WILL MAKE HIM ABLE TO STAND.

You misunderstand me in that, somehow, I've been very clear on that. I'm great with you and Yod "keeping" the Sabbath. I do not beleive that anyone keeps it as it was commanded, "no going out of the tent, no kindling a fire, no doing nothing", so I get back to, what is the point?

If we try to keep one point of the law we are obligated to keep the entire law, right? Can we do that? Can we?

The Sabbath cannot be abolished because it is given as an everlasting covenant to Israel. Therefore as long as ONE Jew is still living on this earth, the Sabbath is still in existence. It was a covenant with the Jewish people and those who sought to join themselves to the physical nation of Israel.

Again, AGREED! And a Jew in Christ is no longer a Jew. "There is no Jew nor Greek, male nor female etc. in Christ, we are one" So, who is the Sabbath for? You said Israel and I agree.

I am also saying that you are wrong for saying that Yeshua REPLACES the Sabbath, because the Scriptures do not say that. That is something YOU are penciling in.

Now, see, there we part ways and I stand on Colossians 2 that clearly says the Sabbath was the shadow and Christ is the reality.

Shalom, brother