Water and Blood

[JohnS]

1Jn 5:6 Jesus Christ is the one who came by water and blood – not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, becausethe Spirit is the truth.

I have been reading many different views on this passage. I can't help thinking about the context. All through his letter, John has been writing about truth, obedience, and love as the evidence of a true Christian. He goes so far as to write that if we say, and do not do, we are liars.

Water represents cleansing. Jesus had no need of cleansing but was baptized by John to "fulfil all righteousness". The precious blood was the propitiation for our sins.

Verse 7 was apparently altered in the KJV.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. "

Everything after "bear record" found in no Greek manuscript before the 14th century. So verses 7 and 8 become;

"Forthere are three that testify,the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement."

What are your views on the passage?

[He giveth more grace]

1Jn 5:6 Jesus Christ is the one who came by water and blood – not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, becausethe Spirit is the truth.

I have been reading many different views on this passage. I can't help thinking about the context. All through his letter, John has been writing about truth, obedience, and love as the evidence of a true Christian. He goes so far as to write that if we say, and do not do, we are liars.

Water represents cleansing. Jesus had no need of cleansing but was baptized by John to "fulfill all righteousness". The precious blood was the propitiation for our sins.

Verse 7 was apparently altered in the KJV.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. "

Everything after "bear record" found in no Greek manuscript before the 14th century. So verses 7 and 8 become;

"Forthere are three that testify,the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement."

What are your views on the passage?

Water = The word of God (the Bible, Prophecy), that is indisputable I believe.

Blood = Blood of his passion.

I don't know!

[AlexanderJ]

John has been writing about truth, obedience, and love as the evidence of a true Christian

The statement "true Christian" is tautalogical. It is like saying that a ball is a "round circle" or that a pyramid is a "triangular triangle".

[gdemoss]

1Jn 5:6 Jesus Christ is the one who came by water and blood – not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, becausethe Spirit is the truth.

What are your views on the passage?

Came by water:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And by blood:

Hbr 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

And received the testimony of the Spirit:

Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

it is quite simple but very hard to receive because it requires the one receiving to do certain works to be accounted a believer and likewise receive the same witness of the Spirit which is the resurrection from the dead. The false gospel says give mental assent and you are saved. The true gospel says believe in the only begotten of the Father and your faith will be accounted to you for righteousness and your faith will manifest itself in certain definite works as you pick up your cross, deny yourself and follow Jesus. The water will bear public witness to your testimony before others of this fact. And as time passes and your faith is tried as was Abrahams, your works will show if your faith is true as there are many who profess Jesus but deny him in works. You might end up like Paul and be able to declare plainly:

Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

We have been given an offer:

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

It is up to us what we do with it. Many will define what it means to receive him but in the end the Spirit will bear witness of those who did by the resurrection from the dead. According to Ephesians we can have a precursor of that resurrection through the Spirit even in this life by his quickening our mortal flesh and empowering us to live according to his ways. We either are or are not taking advantage of that truth. According to 2 Cor 3, we are the ministers of the Spirit unto others. According to 1 Thes, that Spirit bears witness unto others through our behavior toward them. I know that it is not me that does the works that I do today but the Spirit of God who dwells in me that I ask to fill me each and everyday with his love, joy, peace, patience, meekness, self-control, goodness, gentleness and faith. He does not fail me.

Praise God and give glory to his name by following his Son Jesus Christ,

Gary

[JohnS]

Came by water:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And by blood:

Hbr 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

And received the testimony of the Spirit:

Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

it is quite simple but very hard to receive because it requires the one receiving to do certain works to be accounted a believer and likewise receive the same witness of the Spirit which is the resurrection from the dead. The false gospel says give mental assent and you are saved. The true gospel says believe in the only begotten of the Father and your faith will be accounted to you for righteousness and your faith will manifest itself in certain definite works as you pick up your cross, deny yourself and follow Jesus. The water will bear public witness to your testimony before others of this fact. And as time passes and your faith is tried as was Abrahams, your works will show if your faith is true as there are many who profess Jesus but deny him in works. You might end up like Paul and be able to declare plainly:

Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

We have been given an offer:

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

It is up to us what we do with it. Many will define what it means to receive him but in the end the Spirit will bear witness of those who did by the resurrection from the dead. According to Ephesians we can have a precursor of that resurrection through the Spirit even in this life by his quickening our mortal flesh and empowering us to live according to his ways. We either are or are not taking advantage of that truth. According to 2 Cor 3, we are the ministers of the Spirit unto others. According to 1 Thes, that Spirit bears witness unto others through our behavior toward them. I know that it is not me that does the works that I do today but the Spirit of God who dwells in me that I ask to fill me each and everyday with his love, joy, peace, patience, meekness, self-control, goodness, gentleness and faith. He does not fail me.

Praise God and give glory to his name by following his Son Jesus Christ,

Gary

Yes, that message is preached all through this letter. I guess all the discussion of Gnostic heresies and such was just a diversion. Good! Reading Irenaeus is such a chore.

John had just wrote, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

The works aren't a requirement, but an evidence of the new birth.

John the Baptist preached the same message,

^{Luke 3:7} So he began saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? ⁸ Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. ⁹ Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

[HawkBlue27]

Adrian Rogers did a sermon about this. He mentioned in 1 John 5:6 he somehow connected this to a hymn that says "let the water and the blood from your wounded side which flowed".......

[AlexanderJ]

1Jn 5:6 Jesus Christ is the one who came by water and blood – not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, becausethe Spirit is the truth.

I have been reading many different views on this passage. I can't help thinking about the context. All through his letter, John has been writing about truth, obedience, and love as the evidence of a true Christian. He goes so far as to write that if we say, and do not do, we are liars.

Water represents cleansing. Jesus had no need of cleansing but was baptized by John to "fulfil all righteousness". The precious blood was the propitiation for our sins.

Verse 7 was apparently altered in the KJV.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. "

Everything after "bear record" found in no Greek manuscript before the 14th century. So verses 7 and 8 become;

"Forthere are three that testify,the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement."

What are your views on the passage?

I don't think that your statement "Everything after "bear record" found in no Greek manuscript before the 14th century" is wholly accurate. I quote from an article from https://www.chick.co...les/1john57.asp

1 John 5:7 belongs in the King James Bible and was preserved by faithful Christians. But the passage was removed from many Greek manuscripts, because of the problems it seemed to cause. It is true that there is a small number of Scriptures that are not the same between the King James Bible and the so-called "Majority" Greek text. There are a number of reasons for this:

1. The so-called "Majority" text was not really based on the majority of texts, but rather a relatively small number of manuscripts. The last person to try to find the differences between the majority of Greek manuscripts, Dr. Von Soden, did not collate more than 400 of the more than 5,000 Greek texts. In other words, what is commonly called the "Majority" Greek text is not a collation of the majority of manuscripts at all.
   
2. The "Majority" Greek text is also the main Greek text used by the Eastern Orthodox religion. They had a vested interest in changing (or deleting) some texts. More on this in a moment.
   
3. 1 John itself is not in a large number of extant Greek manuscripts.
   

So why then is 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible, but not in many of the existing Greek manuscripts? To understand the answer, we must look at the history of what happened shortly after the Bible was written.

During the early growth of the Christian church, ministers (whether saved or not) wrote down doctrines that they said were Christian and Biblical. Starting after the death of the apostles (about 100 AD) many people taught the lie that Jesus was not God the Son and Son of God, or that Jesus became God at His baptism, or the false doctrine that the Holy Spirit was not God or was not eternal.

The growing religion that became known as Roman Catholic, after many debates eventually agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity. So they had no reason to remove 1 John 5:7 from their Bibles, since it supported what they taught.

But the Greek Eastern Orthodox religion was combating a heresy called "Sabellianism," and would have found it easier to combat the heresy by simply removing the troubling passage from their Bibles.

But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse:

200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas

250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)

350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]

350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]

350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione

398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism

415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)

450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:

A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"

B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]

C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]

500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]

550 AD Old Latin ms r has it

550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]

750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it

800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [it was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]

1000s AD miniscule 635 has it

1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin

1300s AD miniscule 629 has it

157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse

1500 AD ms 61 has the verse

Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.

Edited December 9, 2012 by AlexanderJ

[NeedYouLord]

This is a most intriguing something that happened today...I know I'm simple and not a scholar...but why would this just come to my mind today...oh it was while we were having Science today during Homeschool...

All of a sudden I could see this truth...When Jesus was on the Cross and the soldier pierced His side and out came water and Blood...

I told my daughter...If you were to pierce your skin; before blood would come out you would see water...(You know if not too much of a cut etc.)

Anyway...I could see it clear as day...It proves Jesus was human...Oh my

[joi]

This is a most intriguing something that happened today...I know I'm simple and not a scholar...but why would this just come to my mind today...oh it was while we were having Science today during Homeschool...

All of a sudden I could see this truth...When Jesus was on the Cross and the soldier pierced His side and out came water and Blood...

I told my daughter...If you were to pierce your skin; before blood would come out you would see water...(You know if not too much of a cut etc.)

Anyway...I could see it clear as day...It proves Jesus was human...Oh my

Ain't God great? ; )

[Guest]

IMO, John, here, clearly refers to the sacraments of Baptism and Eucharist, and their central role in salvation, with the Spirit operating within both.

You

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:10-12

Think

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:1-2

Huh?

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:10-18