franciskelsey Posted January 29, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 120 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 37 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/19/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/13/1974 Share Posted January 29, 2013 In Revelation 4:4 it talks about 24 elders sitting on the 24 thrones. Other passages as 4:10-11 and 11:16-18 mention also these elders, but is there any certainty on who these elders may be? Some say they represent the church. If so or even so, is there an actual 24 elder scene on the thrones? In other words, there are many photo types but always using a real person or group in both the photo type and the fulfillment. Thus would indicate there really was/is/ or will be 24 actual elders on the thrones unless I am seeing things a little off which has been known to happen from time to time. LOL There seems to be hints in regards to white robes and crowns but nothing that seems concrete to me as even in chapter 11 their prayer may or may not include themselves as the saints. All in all, just a bit baffled. If anyone could show clear indication or direct cross references as why one believes as they do that would be great. Maybe there is no concrete way of knowing on this side of heaven, but God does desire us to learn as much is we can. Thank you in advance for your helpful responses as this site is often more than full of very knowledgeable brothers and sisters.. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 29, 2013 I have found no indication as to who these 24 elders are. Scripture is silent. Just another one of those "wait and see" pieces of scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 In Revelation 4:4 it talks about 24 elders sitting on the 24 thrones. Other passages as 4:10-11 and 11:16-18 mention also these elders, but is there any certainty on who these elders may be? Some say they represent the church. If so or even so, is there an actual 24 elder scene on the thrones? In other words, there are many photo types but always using a real person or group in both the photo type and the fulfillment. Thus would indicate there really was/is/ or will be 24 actual elders on the thrones unless I am seeing things a little off which has been known to happen from time to time. LOL There seems to be hints in regards to white robes and crowns but nothing that seems concrete to me as even in chapter 11 their prayer may or may not include themselves as the saints. All in all, just a bit baffled. If anyone could show clear indication or direct cross references as why one believes as they do that would be great. Maybe there is no concrete way of knowing on this side of heaven, but God does desire us to learn as much is we can. Thank you in advance for your helpful responses as this site is often more than full of very knowledgeable brothers and sisters.. God bless Although Like Allen, I Have No Scripture To Unlock The Puzzle Here Are Some Interesting Thoughts For Thought The elders in heaven represent the whole heavenly priesthood—that is, all the redeemed who have died in the past, or who will be living at the Lord's return…. The church of the present age and Old Testament saints alike are included. All are priests. All worship. There were twelve patriarchs in Israel, and twelve apostles introducing the new dispensation. The two together would give the complete four and twenty. http://watch.pair.com/24-elders.html Conclusion In the foregoing pages we have attempted to show at great length that these twenty-four seated and enthralled elders represent the New Testament Church. These arguments have not been without point however, and now one thing needs to be said to conclude our discussion. First of all, note that these twenty-four elders who represent the Church are seen by the Apostle John in heaven, not on the earth, sitting on thrones, wearing crowns on their heads, and clothed in white raiment, all of which is proof that they have been resurrected, translated and rewarded. It is completely incongruous to conceive of a disembodied spirit crowned and rewarded apart from the resurrection and the rapture. We conclude therefore that the rapture has already taken place. Secondly, note that in chapter five these elders watch with great interest as the Lamb of God takes the sealed book of divine judgment from the hand of the One who sits on the central throne. To close the chapter John sees them singing a song of their own redemption and adoring the Lamb as the One who alone has the right to hold the book. Thirdly, note that all of these events take place before a single seal of the book of Judgment is broken, before a single trumpet of judgment is sounded and before a single bowl of divine wrath is poured out on the earth. Hence chronologically chapters four and five of Revelation take place before any of the terrible Judgments described in chapters six to nineteen are poured out on the earth. Logically this is imperative. Chapters four and five constitute an introductory vision to the events which are about to happen. Chapter four concerns the setting up of a special throne of judgment for the tribulation and chapter five describes the little book and its seven seals. The breaking of the first seal ushers in the first Judgment. Logically then the events of these two chapters must precede the great tribulation and its scenes of judgment because it is from the things here pictured that these Judgments proceed. Now, regardless of what you do with chapters six through nineteen these arguments prove a pretribulational rapture. As McClain has so ably put it, Now regardless of the chronological interpretation you may make of the Judgments of Revelation 6 to19; whether you adopt some recapitulation or overlapping scheme; shuffle the seals and trumpets and vials as you will; you cannot push chapters 4 and 5 into the picture which follows in chapters 6 to19. There is no judgment until the first seal is broken; the first seal is not broken until the Lamb receives the Sealed Book; the Lamb does not take the Book until the 24 are in heaven, sitting on thrones and with crowns on their heads. If the scene in heaven described in chapters 4 and 5 does not precede the Judgments of 6 to19, then no man can make any sense whatever out of the order of things in the last book of the Bible. And we may as well complain with Martin Luther, "Even if it were a blessed thing to believe what is in it, no man knows what that is." And so we have in this beautiful symbol a clear reference to the Church which has been raptured prior to the tribulation. Whereas we are certain that this treatise will not convince everyone of the truths which we have presented, may this paper serve as a source of blessing to those who love this truth. "Even so, come Lord Jesus." http://watch.pair.com/24-elders.html So I Now Have A Lot More Ideas But Still No Scriptures To Blow The Smoke Away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciskelsey Posted January 29, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 120 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 37 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/19/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/13/1974 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 Thank you Joe for your time in looking the topic up. I kind of find it amusing how many that believe in a pre-trib rapture use questionable photo types as proof yet deny or try explaining away clear scripture. Anyhow, I guess that is for another thread. LOL I truly do appreciate your time. Perhaps the reason I am quite often unsatisfied with answers as I, like Thomas, always want clear and visible proof. God certainly has gave me more than enough to believe and to put my trust in Him over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted January 30, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30, 2013 We know who 12 of them are. In talking to the 12 disciples Jesus said - Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciskelsey Posted January 30, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 120 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 37 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/19/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/13/1974 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 We know who 12 of them are. In talking to the 12 disciples Jesus said - Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Thank you for that passage. After looking up the word throne, there is no reference to that word apart from, or assuming because of it's wording, the saints who will reign with Christ for the thousand years. Good point made. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He giveth more grace Posted January 30, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,049 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 267 Days Won: 9 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30, 2013 They are the 12 patriot's of Israel and 12 disciples of the Lord Jesus, 12+12=24. You'll probably will be wanting scripture,huh, oh boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciskelsey Posted January 31, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 120 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 37 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/19/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/13/1974 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 We know who 12 of them are. In talking to the 12 disciples Jesus said - Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sit s on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones , judging the twelve tribes of Israel. They are the 12 patriot's of Israel and 12 disciples of the Lord Jesus, 12+12=24. You'll probably will be wanting scripture,huh, oh boy. I could be wrong but it does seem that these thrones are given just as Jesus states, at the renewal of all things. We seem to get a clear picture of this well after Revelation chapter 4. << Revelation 20 >> King James Version 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Than, if such is true, the twenty four thrones of chapter cannot be of the ones mentioned Matthew. Matthew 25:31 also implies this. This has lead me through the Spirit to one more time take a real close look at Revelation. This next verse is usually used as proof of the elders representing the saints of old and new. Revelation 5 6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (1) If this is correct, would not the four beast also be the saints, as they sing the same song? (2) Why did the KJV use the word "us", when it is not found that way in the original nor do most translations translate it that way? http://interlinearbible.org/revelation/5-9.htm It seems, as most translations put it, it should read more like this: New International Version (©1984) And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. thus removing the implication that the elders or beast were referring to themselves when singing this song. (3) It seems that instead of the assumption the church is represented as the elders, that the church, the part that have been slain or are now gone from earth, are under the alter of God: Revelation 6 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (4) It seems to me the elders and the saints are always listed in contrast to each other rather than the same or together in the book of Revelation: Revelation 7 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (5) Last but not least for now, it seems the bible makes clear when it is the saints who are singing the songs. Revelation 15 2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. I saw many other passages supporting the above statements in Revelation but will use if requested. Also interesting to note, other than Jesus, John only speaks at the beginning of Revelation as an angel relaying the messages to him. In Revelation, we find both an elder and an angel relating things to him. Are they the same? If not, are they both angels? These are just questions as most certainly I have not concluded an answer. I just like to take away some possible answers to help come up with a good possibility. God bless you all and thank you for reading and your responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He giveth more grace Posted January 31, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,049 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 267 Days Won: 9 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2013 Brother Francis, you've got it boy - nailed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He giveth more grace Posted January 31, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,049 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 267 Days Won: 9 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2013 At least one half of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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