Evidence for God

[godproof]

The problem with debating with scientism from a Christian, creationist, or intelligent design perspective is, they always try to reduce our arguments to faith, psychological/physiological. They say we can't prove God through scientific method, so He doesn't exists. Who said He wants to be proven by scientific method

Faith is substantive. I come to see it as a spiritual law that God has set, like the laws of physics. I say this because during the time before I rejected God, I also was introduced to ouija boards and they WORK! But, these occult tools didn't work for the person with us who was atheist. Hmm. Now 25 years later, I've come to realize the one thing that Christians and people who at least believe in the spiritual realm, is that belief (yes, yes, I know that they unknowingly are tapping into fallen angels who pose as gods). When you factor in all religions and spiritual realm tappers, we outnumber atheists, reducing them to a fraction of the world's population.

In this war against scientism, which is out to label all religious/spiritual people as having delusional experience - we need to bring to light that it's these very experiences that prove the existence of the spiritual realm and God!

The 1-2 billion Christians in the world, are having innumerable answers to prayers and many other types of experiences, that prove God exists. Time for scientism to take it seriously.

[godproof]

Scientism, not science. But, really are you telling me that 'science' isn't being controlled by atheists? 'Most scientists' believe in God? Really. Guess they need to come out of the closet Then there would be no debate if most scientists/science believed in God. It's an easy answer about the numerous conflicting beliefs. God(YHWH) is the One True God/His Son Yeshua (Jesus) and the fallen angels that rebelled are the opposing forces of 'conflicting' ideologies. We have practical examples in the world of how enemies engage in lies, deception, propaganda and every form of evil possible. Satan and his realm is the ultimate in evil and is the source of the world's confusion. It makes complete sense if you believe. If you don't then, it won't. God's not a schizophrenic. I believe one day, the spiritual realm will be tested for, just not with the limits of our technology. That's an idea I want to get out there. There is a point of contact that God designed in with the spiritual/temporal. Think of their realm as a different phase of existence. When spirits oppress, that means they cross over to our realm, which means a point of contact. One day, we'll be able to measure that

The problem with debating with scientism from a Christian, creationist, or intelligent design perspective is, they always try to reduce our arguments to faith, psychological/physiological. They say we can't prove God through scientific method, so He doesn't exists.

Oops, did you made a bit of a gaff? No one in science, Godproof, ever said science disproves God. That is not what you are implying is it? God is not detectable by any scientific means we know of, so science can have nothing to say about the nature of God. Note that many scientists believe in the reality of God, so I hardly think science is the problem.

If God is not visible to our human senses nor to the instruments we use to take measurements of the physical world then from what source have our human religions derived their vast knowledge of the gods and supernatural beings that fill our imaginations? Given our numerous belief systems should we not question the source of these conflicting beliefs? If there is truly one supernatural reality then why is there such a vast panorama of beliefs about that reality?

[godproof]

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention. Those 'experiences' of other peoples of the world that believe in the spiritual realm (regardless of religion or how they access it) - are more evidence that the spiritual realm exists. That is one area - like it or not Christians - that we have common ground. Of course, from the Christians perspective, God made it clear that that side is interaction with fallen angels (demons) or spirits of the dead (not for His people to do). But, it's all interactions with the spiritual, which means more evidence of the spiritual realm and we're talking about the majority of the world's population now, vast majority.

Edited February 17, 2013 by godproof

[godproof]

Science education is definitely controlled by atheists, how vehemently attack those opposed to evolutionary beginnings. We'll disagree in this as you can look anywhere in popular media of how creationist/ID proponents are treated when they deny macro-evolution. A true 'Christian' evangelical would never accept evolution over creation. That would be calling God a liar. Why does science even need to say everything evolved? Why not just study if for what it is now? It's to get back to why we exist, how we got here. But since evolution makes our existence meaningless anyway.... Thanks for the welcome

[Guest]

There is no such thing as atheist controlled science....

Anti-Christ

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

And The Mythos

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

Of The Death Of Faith

Yea, hath God said Genesis 3:1(c )

Some Are Even So Care Less As To Call Their Mockery Science

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 1 Timothy 6:20

Yet They Have No Knowledge Of The Power Of The Living God So They Stand And Scorn

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

And Turn To Swear By Their Idol

And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. Jeremiah 18:12

I Sin Not

Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 16:9

Oh Foolish Men

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans 1:19-22

~

Be Wise

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Matthew 2:1-2

And Believe

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John14:6

And Be Blessed Beloved

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Love, Joe

[cmf]

There are many famous,well respected,scientist that are christians.Many of these men turned christian after trying,with out sucess,to prove God to be mythical.Science is one of the greatest defenders of the christian faith.I say this becouse of the constat failures to debunk the validity of the bible only serve to magnify its absolute truth.Now if you take the theroy of evolution and use science to prove its absurdity,well,thats easy.Becouse of science we are now better able to understand just how complex the genetic engineering of individual organisms realy is.The furtherance of science will only continue to prove such complexity untill the only answer for such existence is GOD.This is not theroy,but has been proven to be the case.Just ask your scientist turned chrisrian.

Ps.133:1"Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity."

Keep up the good work defending the faith,fight on.

Bro.CMF

Edited February 18, 2013 by cmf

[Kadin]

The problem with debating with scientism from a Christian, creationist, or intelligent design perspective is, they always try to reduce our arguments to faith, psychological/physiological. They say we can't prove God through scientific method, so He doesn't exists. Who said He wants to be proven by scientific method

Actually, I don't know of any real science that tries to prove or disprove the existence of deity. The science that I am familiar with often tries to explain, and tries to predict probabilities. Science might well try to expose fraudulent claims of religious charlatans attempting to inspire the beliefs of others by deception. It might suggest that some claims are improbable, but I don’t thing real science actually claims to have any absolute truths.

It is not as a scientist therefore that look for a foundation upon which to build a belief. Sadly, in my lifetime, I have not found one, but I keep seeking.

Kadin

[Guest]

The problem with debating with scientism from a Christian, creationist, or intelligent design perspective is, they always try to reduce our arguments to faith, psychological/physiological. They say we can't prove God through scientific method, so He doesn't exists. Who said He wants to be proven by scientific method

Actually, I don't know of any real science that tries to prove or disprove the existence of deity. The science that I am familiar with often tries to explain, and tries to predict probabilities. Science might well try to expose fraudulent claims of religious charlatans attempting to inspire the beliefs of others by deception. It might suggest that some claims are improbable, but I don’t thing real science actually claims to have any absolute truths.

It is not as a scientist therefore that look for a foundation upon which to build a belief. Sadly, in my lifetime, I have not found one, but I keep seeking.

Kadin

Welcome~!

[Kadin]

Actually, I don't know of any real science that tries to prove or disprove the existence of deity.

I know of none at all.

Science might well try to expose fraudulent claims of religious charlatans attempting to inspire the beliefs of others by deception.

I don't know of any examples of this either. I do know of one non-scientist who has made it his life's work to expose psychic charlatans. His name is James Randi and he is a professional magician. Randi offers a $1 million prize to anyone who can give proof of paranormal activity. That's up from the $10,000 prize he started with. So far no takers. He has exposed some big-tent evangelists who employ deception in their shows.

I don’t thing real science actually claims to have any absolute truths.

Although, I think most of us would agree there must be absolute truth out there. Don’t you think so? If you read Job it is clear the writer thought hail and snowfall were both supernatural events. He came to the conclusion that God must have storehouses in Heaven and presumed snow and hail were then tossed down by God as needed. We now understand, absolutely, that there are no storehouses in the sky. We understand in great detail how both snow and hail form. No need for God anymore to account for these things.

Having said that many believers might hold the general view that God could make it hail if he wanted to but I am certain most take the view that the vast majority of hail storms are natural events. If someone wanted to take the position that a particular storm was a direct result of God’s activity they would have to hold that view as a matter of faith. There would be absolutely no way to prove God’s involvement.

We may understand, absolutely, that certain things are no longer true (ie. “storehouses” in Heaven), but absolute understanding still eludes us in most things. I agree with you, “real science” does not claim to hold absolute truth.

It is not as a scientist therefore that look for a foundation upon which to build a belief. Sadly, in my lifetime, I have not found one, but I keep seeking.

My belief is that the universe, wondrous though it is, is fully natural in all its aspects, including its beginning. I am convinced of this because I have not a scrap of evidence to think otherwise. I may not understand how the universe or life began, but I don’t have any reason to jump to the conclusion that those beginnings must be supernatural.

[Kadin]

Having said that many believers might hold the general view that God could make it hail if he wanted to but I am certain most take the view that the vast majority of hail storms are natural events. If someone wanted to take the position that a particular storm was a direct result of God’s activity they would have to hold that view as a matter of faith. There would be absolutely no way to prove God’s involvement.

Thank you all who commented on this topic. Your insights have given me much to think about.

I think the Bible suggests we should see the "Hand of God" in all things. I fear this; The idea that we would see divine intervention even when it may not be there. Does nothing happen without the intervention of God?

Much of what we can learn of Diety from the Bible, involves seeing God as a being of power. One who can warp natural law and cause anything to happen to support His chosen and blessed people. One who stands beside us and vanquishes our enemies with natural and supernatural occurances. Sadly, not one who usually engages wisdom and diplomacy to resolve differences. Sending hail from the storehouse, or wherever it comes from, killing the wives and slaves and children of Job certainly demonstrated power, but not compassion, or mercy. Is it beyond the power of God to reason with Satan? To reach some sort of compromise. Humans, on occasion, have been able to resolve differences without resorting to war. Is that totally impossible even for God?

I don't suppose an all powerful being has to negotiate, but nevertheless, negotiation is often the ethical course of action, even if you don't have to.

Over and over again in the OT, God (the Prophet actually) sent armies to wipe out people who were living in one place or another. Would it have been so completely futile to negotiate a peaceful settlement. Ask them politely to move, even make a reasonable settlement offer. Even in the NT we see examples of when violence is the first and only option.

Possibly my biggest problem in life is that I respect wisdom. I find virtue in being able to avoid violence, find amiable compromise using super human acts of intellect and diplomacy. The ablility to see a path to peace through a seemingly impenatrable maze of discord. I respect this. All powerful beings capable of eradicating whole civiliations with a single word.... Not so much.

Kadin