Steve_S Posted July 4, 2013 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted July 4, 2013 Enough has been said? I don't even know what the argument is supposed to be. If the thought is that evolution is shown to be incompatible with the gospel that line of reasoning has never been demonstrated. Oh, it has been demonstrated. The fact that you are determined to remain in your unbelief doesn't mean it hasn't been demonstrated. There is not amount of evidence that could ever be produced to satisfy someone unwilling to be convinced. The bottom line is that the Bible is the word of an all knowing, all powerful God who doesn't lie or make mistakes. Science comes from sinful corrupt fallibile little men. You can follow them. I am a Christan,however, and I will believe and trust God. That's what Christians do. The point is that the allegorical method is simply a means of inserting things like gay marriage and evolution through the back door in an attempt to supplant the Bible's authority for man's wisdom. Not at all, I am typically responsive to arguments and evidence if they are convincing and I give them careful thought. I have many weaknesses and vices but that doesn't seem to be one of them. I have repeatedly asked for a clear argument and got post after post like this, insulting rhetoric. Your need to get in the last word by insinuating that my loyalty to God is lacking is noted. You can believe the Bible, OR you can believe in Evolution. But you can't have both. The Bible doesn't support Evolution and it is odd that even hard core atheistic evolutionists are more honest about this than you and BFA. I think it is a sad commentary when unbelievers are more honest than people who claim to be Christians. I have provided evidence when requested. The fact that you don't like the evidence and refuse to acknowledge it doesn't mean it hasn't been offered. Passive aggressively questioning others' salvation is a poor way to debate this particular issue and is, in and of itself, bad form. I know several brothers and sisters who are OEC who bear fruits of the Spirit. This doesn't at all seem to be telling the truth in love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 You can believe the Bible, OR you can believe in Evolution. But you can't have both. The Bible doesn't support Evolution and it is odd that even hard core atheistic evolutionists are more honest about this than you and BFA. I think it is a sad commentary when unbelievers are more honest than people who claim to be Christians. Hello Shiloh, Can you clarify this statement please. Are you suggesting Bary and BFA may not be Christians ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Passive aggressively questioning others' salvation is a poor way to debate this particular issue and is, in and of itself, bad form. I know several brothers and sisters who are OEC who bear fruits of the Spirit. This doesn't at all seem to be telling the truth in love.... ~ Beloved I Do So Despise That Pejorative (Name Calling) And Christ Hating So Called Science Of Psychology Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8 And A Believer Can Only Give Back To You What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. Matthew 10:27 What God Gave And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7 Him It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Corinthians 15:44-49 You See ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted July 4, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 4, 2013 A reminder ...... Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18) On a personal note, I have friends that are Christians and truly committed to G-d, but they still adhere to various aspects of evolutionary theory and attempt to weave it into their understanding of Creation and several other aspects of biblical history....I disagree with them on these issues. I think it is an important subject because I believe it can colour the way a person looks at the sacred words of G-d and understands something of the unfathomable mystery of G-ds ways that some types of Science have tried to pierce. I believe the phrase 'blinded by Science' is particularly applicable, and in a sense the 'gospel of Science' can be very persuasive and actively work against the substance of G-ds revealed words...even if we don't understand their full import, or can't yet demonstrate 'scientifically' their utter veracity. I'm not a very scientifically-minded person, but I have come to realise that Science confirms the Bible, it doesn't and can't undermine it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 A reminder ...... Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18) On a personal note, I have friends that are Christians and truly committed to G-d, but they still adhere to various aspects of evolutionary theory and attempt to weave it into their understanding of Creation and several other aspects of biblical history....I disagree with them on these issues. I think it is an important subject because I believe it can colour the way a person looks at the sacred words of G-d and understands something of the unfathomable mystery of G-ds ways that some types of Science have tried to pierce. I believe the phrase 'blinded by Science' is particularly applicable, and in a sense the 'gospel of Science' can be very persuasive and actively work against the substance of G-ds revealed words...even if we don't understand their full import, or can't yet demonstrate 'scientifically' their utter veracity. I'm not a very scientifically-minded person, but I have come to realise that Science confirms the Bible, it doesn't and can't undermine it... Hello Botz I agree with this. The "gospel of science" is sometimes used to bring all science into disrepute. Maybe the "gospel of unbelievers" is more apt because, as you have suggested, science ( the study of the physical world and it's implications ) is not in opposition to Jesus. Many scientists are Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 4, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I've come to hate getting involved with Creation-Evolution debates. One reason is because I have learned that Creationists more often than not misrepresent what the scientific theories are actually claiming. This creates nothing but mockery from those that truly are opposed to Jesus, the Bible, and Christians. Another reason is because I actually read in Genesis things that don't make sense with the standard 7-day Creation model, and when I bring those points up, supporters respond with a bunch of theological and theoretical gymnastics that come across more as if someone is trying to defend their theology rather than trying to support the Bible. While I believe the standard evolution model does require jumping gaps and making assumptions that proponents for some odd reason are blind to, I also believe that the standard Creation model is an attempt to fit a theological explanation into a scientific one, which I believe is akin to using pearls to create ball bearings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Enough has been said? I don't even know what the argument is supposed to be. If the thought is that evolution is shown to be incompatible with the gospel that line of reasoning has never been demonstrated. Oh, it has been demonstrated. The fact that you are determined to remain in your unbelief doesn't mean it hasn't been demonstrated. There is not amount of evidence that could ever be produced to satisfy someone unwilling to be convinced. The bottom line is that the Bible is the word of an all knowing, all powerful God who doesn't lie or make mistakes. Science comes from sinful corrupt fallibile little men. You can follow them. I am a Christan,however, and I will believe and trust God. That's what Christians do. The point is that the allegorical method is simply a means of inserting things like gay marriage and evolution through the back door in an attempt to supplant the Bible's authority for man's wisdom. Not at all, I am typically responsive to arguments and evidence if they are convincing and I give them careful thought. I have many weaknesses and vices but that doesn't seem to be one of them. I have repeatedly asked for a clear argument and got post after post like this, insulting rhetoric. Your need to get in the last word by insinuating that my loyalty to God is lacking is noted. You can believe the Bible, OR you can believe in Evolution. But you can't have both. The Bible doesn't support Evolution and it is odd that even hard core atheistic evolutionists are more honest about this than you and BFA. I think it is a sad commentary when unbelievers are more honest than people who claim to be Christians. I have provided evidence when requested. The fact that you don't like the evidence and refuse to acknowledge it doesn't mean it hasn't been offered. Passive aggressively questioning others' salvation is a poor way to debate this particular issue and is, in and of itself, bad form. I know several brothers and sisters who are OEC who bear fruits of the Spirit. This doesn't at all seem to be telling the truth in love. (sigh...) I did not say they are not believers. I did not question their salvation. I said that it is sad that atheists are being more honest about the Theory of Evolution than are people who claim to be Christians. I have found that Christians are skewing the theory and misrepresenting what the core tenets of the theory are in order to make the Bible accomodate a theory that at its core precludes God or any other intelligent causality. That is what I was saying. I am lamenting that Jesus' followers can't must up the honesty to admit what the theory actually states. This is not about OEC... I consider OEC quite valid and have regularly defened OEC. There are some compelling arguments for it. To accuse me of questioning their salvation shows that you didn't actually read my post, you simply assigned values to me in a knee-jerk reaction. It would be nice if you took the time to read what is written and allow me to speak for myself before jumping to rash conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I've come to hate getting involved with Creation-Evolution debates. One reason is because I have learned that Creationists more often than not misrepresent what the scientific theories are actually claiming. This creates nothing but mockery from those that truly are opposed to Jesus, the Bible, and Christians. Another reason is because I actually read in Genesis things that don't make sense with the standard 7-day Creation model, and when I bring those points up, supporters respond with a bunch of theological and theoretical gymnastics that come across more as if someone is trying to defend their theology rather than trying to support the Bible. While I believe the standard evolution model does require jumping gaps and making assumptions that proponents for some odd reason are blind to, I also believe that the standard Creation model is an attempt to fit a theological explanation into a scientific one, which I believe is akin to using pearls to create ball bearings. Replying to the bolded part. In this thread, it is the "evolutionists" who are misrepresenting what the ToE is saying, not the creationists. I am running with what I have learned about the core tenets of the theory from those who are in the best position to explain it. It is those promoting evolution in this thread who are trying to skew Evolution in order to make it fit into the Bible (and they are also misrepresenting the Bible, as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandalf Posted July 4, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 377 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 29 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/28/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 4, 2013 Enough has been said? I don't even know what the argument is supposed to be. If the thought is that evolution is shown to be incompatible with the gospel that line of reasoning has never been demonstrated.Oh, it has been demonstrated. The fact that you are determined to remain in your unbelief doesn't mean it hasn't been demonstrated. There is not amount of evidence that could ever be produced to satisfy someone unwilling to be convinced. The bottom line is that the Bible is the word of an all knowing, all powerful God who doesn't lie or make mistakes. Science comes from sinful corrupt fallibile little men. You can follow them. I am a Christan,however, and I will believe and trust God. That's what Christians do. The point is that the allegorical method is simply a means of inserting things like gay marriage and evolution through the back door in an attempt to supplant the Bible's authority for man's wisdom.Not at all, I am typically responsive to arguments and evidence if they are convincing and I give them careful thought. I have many weaknesses and vices but that doesn't seem to be one of them. I have repeatedly asked for a clear argument and got post after post like this, insulting rhetoric. Your need to get in the last word by insinuating that my loyalty to God is lacking is noted.You can believe the Bible, OR you can believe in Evolution. But you can't have both. The Bible doesn't support Evolution and it is odd that even hard core atheistic evolutionists are more honest about this than you and BFA. I think it is a sad commentary when unbelievers are more honest than people who claim to be Christians. I have provided evidence when requested. The fact that you don't like the evidence and refuse to acknowledge it doesn't mean it hasn't been offered. Passive aggressively questioning others' salvation is a poor way to debate this particular issue and is, in and of itself, bad form. I know several brothers and sisters who are OEC who bear fruits of the Spirit. This doesn't at all seem to be telling the truth in love.I agree. Lets debate the issues (as most do), not question each other's standing in Christ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted July 4, 2013 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted July 4, 2013 I've come to hate getting involved with Creation-Evolution debates. One reason is because I have learned that Creationists more often than not misrepresent what the scientific theories are actually claiming. This creates nothing but mockery from those that truly are opposed to Jesus, the Bible, and Christians. Another reason is because I actually read in Genesis things that don't make sense with the standard 7-day Creation model, and when I bring those points up, supporters respond with a bunch of theological and theoretical gymnastics that come across more as if someone is trying to defend their theology rather than trying to support the Bible. While I believe the standard evolution model does require jumping gaps and making assumptions that proponents for some odd reason are blind to, I also believe that the standard Creation model is an attempt to fit a theological explanation into a scientific one, which I believe is akin to using pearls to create ball bearings. Replying to the bolded part. In this thread, it is the "evolutionists" who are misrepresenting what the ToE is saying, not the creationists. I am running with what I have learned about the core tenets of the theory from those who are in the best position to explain it. It is those promoting evolution in this thread who are trying to skew Evolution in order to make it fit into the Bible (and they are also misrepresenting the Bible, as well). I'm going to start this with the caveat that I'm personally a YEC. Having said that, I will say that these criteria are subjective, at best. I don't see any reason a believer couldn't see a metaphorical meaning with regard to creation and remain a believer (even if I think they're wrong). You also have to realize that in a lot of cases people are going to be coming straight out of atheistic backgrounds and are attempting to come to terms with all sorts of moral dilemmas and likely undergoing a lot of upheaval in their personal lives at the same time. It's not necessary to assume that someone in this particular situation who may eventually embrace the young earth position is going to immediately embrace the young earth position, or even embrace it in 5 years or 10 years. I find it generally best to give people the benefit of the doubt. If I have a disagreement with a brother or sister in Christ over evolution then so be it, as long as he or she knows that Jesus bore his or her sins of the cross and was resurrected and as long as they have genuinely put their faith in Him I'm going to trust God to deal with it, even if that involves using me as a vessel from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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