JTC Posted March 28, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,795 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 1,502 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/25/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/26/1952 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Ninhao, Is this a real situation, or are you just asking for general knowledge? If this is a real situation, your lack of providing details, is making this go nowhere. OneLight I disagree with you that men didn't beat their wives 2000 years ago. I think they may have hit them even more often because women were seen as 2nd class citizens. Nevertheless, I think the Bible is not totally silent on this. Paul commanded men to treat their wives as their own bodies. I also think when Paul issued such a decree, he expected it to be followed, and thus he wouldn't say much else. Ninhao, you must be more forthcoming with what is going on. Based on 1 of your last responses, I'm not even sure if you're a man or a woman? I'm also thinking you live in another country where women don't have the rights they do in America. Given all this, I can see none of us know how to help you. But you want something scriptural so I offer this. Paul said (somewhere) that Christ is the head over the man, and the man is the head over the woman. He then went on to say husbands, treat your wives as you would your own body, because we are all one in Christ. So from that, it follows that if either spouse is abusing the other, it's the same as abusing Christ. I hope this helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 28, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.19 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2013 But, if you need an answer, Christian Marriage Counseling would be my answer, not taking your marriage issues to the people sitting in a congregation. Look around your local church and see who has the gift to teach what scripture sways. They are far and few between. Then ask yourself which of them would you trust your most inner secrets to, the list grows even shorter, if it does not disappear all together, outside of the pastor. Don't forget that God also gave us wisdom. I believe you are not giving due credit to the process set in place in Matthew 18 nor the church for being capable of using it correctly. If you make this claim concerning marital abuse how could you suggest Matthew 18 would be good procedure for any other dispute between Christians? Thank you for your input Brother but I fully disagree with you. Matthew 18 is not a see all do all chapter. Consider the difference between the relationship of a married couple and someone who is just a brother in Christ. Let's look at the full passage. Matthew 18:15-20 Dealing with a Sinning Brother 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. 18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Please take note that they are talking about two people who are believers and not married couples. If Christ meant this to be for the married couple, He would of pointed to them also. It is very dangerous to imply scripture to an area of life it is not meant for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Matthew 18 is not a see all do all chapter. Consider the difference between the relationship of a married couple and someone who is just a brother in Christ. Let's look at the full passage. Matthew 18:15-20 Dealing with a Sinning Brother 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. 18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Please take note that they are talking about two people who are believers and not married couples. If Christ meant this to be for the married couple, He would of pointed to them also. It is very dangerous to imply scripture to an area of life it is not meant for. We have already established a married couple are still brothers and sisters in Christ. Since God has not differentiated that married brothers and sisters have a different method to use we can safely use Matthew 18 for all situations. The only danger is not having the wisdom to mediate properly. Of course if you can supply from scripture a different method I will change my mind. God expects us to have the wisdom to settle our disputes in house. 1Co 6:1-5 KJV Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? (2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chloe_fantastic Posted March 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 868 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 221 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/09/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1981 Share Posted March 29, 2013 1. Should husband and wife use the process taught in Matthew 18 if necessary. 2. If so what are the implications of treating the unrepentant guilty party as a heathen. 3. If you don't believe this process should be used what process do you recommend and why. ( I would appreciate scripture and/or sound logic) 1. Yes 2. 1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.19 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 29, 2013 Matthew 18 is not a see all do all chapter. Consider the difference between the relationship of a married couple and someone who is just a brother in Christ. Let's look at the full passage. Matthew 18:15-20 Dealing with a Sinning Brother 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. 18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Please take note that they are talking about two people who are believers and not married couples. If Christ meant this to be for the married couple, He would of pointed to them also. It is very dangerous to imply scripture to an area of life it is not meant for. We have already established a married couple are still brothers and sisters in Christ. Since God has not differentiated that married brothers and sisters have a different method to use we can safely use Matthew 18 for all situations. Is the acknowledgment that in Christ they are brothers and sisters override the fact that they have a deeper relationship in Christ through a covenant God set up, marriage? No! You are wrong. I have been married over 30 years and I will never bring the issues with my wife to the public group of people who sit in a church. God will lead me to the one who He knows will help when we need it. I will say that if a brother sins against me, I will follow the advice in this passage. I have no problem with that. Since you will not even say if you understand marriage from a personal experience, I am out of this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted March 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.79 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 29, 2013 Matthew 18 is not a see all do all chapter. Consider the difference between the relationship of a married couple and someone who is just a brother in Christ. Let's look at the full passage. Matthew 18:15-20 Dealing with a Sinning Brother 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. 18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Please take note that they are talking about two people who are believers and not married couples. If Christ meant this to be for the married couple, He would of pointed to them also. It is very dangerous to imply scripture to an area of life it is not meant for. We have already established a married couple are still brothers and sisters in Christ. Since God has not differentiated that married brothers and sisters have a different method to use we can safely use Matthew 18 for all situations. Is the acknowledgment that in Christ they are brothers and sisters override the fact that they have a deeper relationship in Christ through a covenant God set up, marriage? No! You are wrong. I have been married over 30 years and I will never bring the issues with my wife to the public group of people who sit in a church. God will lead me to the one who He knows will help when we need it. I will say that if a brother sins against me, I will follow the advice in this passage. I have no problem with that. Since you will not even say if you understand marriage from a personal experience, I am out of this conversation. Ninhao, you have claimed OneLight is stonewalling... Yet you yourself refuse to answer the most basic pertinent question to this discussion - have you even been or are you married? If one is married and has experience in a situation then there is more validity to what they say. If one is single and never has experienced marriage it's like describing an exotic fruit say something like passion fruit to someone who has only eaten bananas or apples. I'm in agreement with OneLight from personal experience that the relationship between a brother and sister in Christ is a dim comparison to that of a husband and a wife. That said, abuse should be made public if one spouse is not listening to reason and continues in sin. However, basic disputes and discussions are a part of every day life. To bring something to the church every time a dispute or sin occurs would not foster an atmosphere of trust or a mature marriage where spouses work things out between them. I agree with OneLight it is very dangerous to imply Scripture to an area of life it is not meant for. In this case Matthew 18 for the relationship between a husband and a wife. Matthew 18 is in regards to Church discipline. Counseling is the better first option for a married couple. I disagree with you Ninhao regarding your comment in red. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.91 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I would like to know 3 things. 1. Should husband and wife use the process taught in Matthew 18 if necessary. 2. If so what are the implications of treating the unrepentant guilty party as a heathen. 3. If you don't believe this process should be used what process do you recommend and why. ( I would appreciate scripture and/or sound logic) After reading through this thread, I am wondering, ninhao, is there a particular reason you are seeking a discussion/answers on this? If so, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Is the acknowledgment that in Christ they are brothers and sisters override the fact that they have a deeper relationship in Christ through a covenant God set up, marriage? No! You are wrong. I have been married over 30 years and I will never bring the issues with my wife to the public group of people who sit in a church. God will lead me to the one who He knows will help when we need it. I will say that if a brother sins against me, I will follow the advice in this passage. I have no problem with that. Since you will not even say if you understand marriage from a personal experience, I am out of this conversation. The process follows a strict set of rules which only escalate the presence of other people depending on the result of each step. 1. Discussion between the husband and wife 2. 1 or 2 witnesses 3. The church body This is a very proper way to handle marital abuse and i really don't see why you rail against it. You say that marriage overides the process of mediation contained in Martthew 18 but haven't given any scripture or process to cover the married. Ok now i see you say God will lead you to an abused wife when she needs it. Is this your claim? Can you show me some scripture to confirm this please. I can assure you from the statistics involving abusive marriages either God isn't leading people always or they just aren't listening. Now concerning your insistence of knowing if I am married. I answered you previously telling that I don't give much personal information online it is very important I maintain a level of anonymity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Ninhao, you have claimed OneLight is stonewalling... Yet you yourself refuse to answer the most basic pertinent question to this discussion - have you even been or are you married? I am surprised GE that you insist I provide such personal information. I have explained to OneLight why I haven't given my marital status above and I also believe you are infringing the TOS by insisting I reveal this information. Is this infringing the TOS or not please tell me so that I know if I must answer these personal questions. Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling, insulting, harassing, threatening or in any way invading the privacy of another poster. We also strongly discourage giving out personal information such as email addresses, physical addresses and phone numbers on the public boards. Any information given out in private is at your own discretion and risk. (Eph. 4: 29) If one is married and has experience in a situation then there is more validity to what they say. If one is single and never has experienced marriage it's like describing an exotic fruit say something like passion fruit to someone who has only eaten bananas or apples. Ok yes I understand. Because I am unwilling to provide such personal information online this disqualifies me from participating in this discussion. I will now close this thread and not participate in any future thread which I am not willing to reveal my personal experiences concerning the subject matter. My privacy is very important. I'm in agreement with OneLight from personal experience that the relationship between a brother and sister in Christ is a dim comparison to that of a husband and a wife. That said, abuse should be made public if one spouse is not listening to reason and continues in sin. However, basic disputes and discussions are a part of every day life. To bring something to the church every time a dispute or sin occurs would not foster an atmosphere of trust or a mature marriage where spouses work things out between them. I haven't belittled the marriage covenant but simply insist husband and wife can follow the Matthew 18 procedure as brother and sister in Christ that they are. If you have read my posts in this thread you will see that I have insisted Matthew 18 process is only used in dire need. I have also said it shouldn't be used for everyday disputes. You are actually agreeing with me why don't you show me the courtesy of acknowledging this ? I agree with OneLight it is very dangerous to imply Scripture to an area of life it is not meant for. In this case Matthew 18 for the relationship between a husband and a wife. Matthew 18 is in regards to Church discipline. Counseling is the better first option for a married couple. I disagree with you Ninhao regarding your comment in red. God bless, GE Ok thank you for presenting your position. I disagree whole heartedly because the Church should be able to mediate all situations with grace and wisdom. If we can't how will we judge even Angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I would like to know 3 things. 1. Should husband and wife use the process taught in Matthew 18 if necessary. 2. If so what are the implications of treating the unrepentant guilty party as a heathen. 3. If you don't believe this process should be used what process do you recommend and why. ( I would appreciate scripture and/or sound logic) After reading through this thread, I am wondering, ninhao, is there a particular reason you are seeking a discussion/answers on this? If so, what? Hello Nebula, Yes there is specific reasons I am asking these questions and I am very disappointed with the outcome of this thread. My personal details and reasons in this matter are not for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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