Literal Swords vs Spiritual Weapons

[The_Patriot21]

Well-said patriot. I find it to be morally incongruous when we are called to be peacemakers and good Samaritans; yet somehow according to the pacifist position stand by idly and allow violence to be perpetrated against innocents when the opportunity may be available to us to stop it. Francis Schaeffer drives the point home:

"I am to love my neighbor as myself, in the manner needed, in the midst of the fallen world, at my particular point in history. This is why I am not a pacifist. Pacifism in the poor world in which we live – this lost world – means that we desert the people who need our greatest help...I come upon a big burly man beating a tiny tot to death...I plead with him to stop. Suppose he refuses? What does love mean now? Love means that I stop him in any way that I can, including hitting him. To me, this is not only necessary for humanitarian reasons; it is loyalty to Christ's commands concerning Christian love in a fallen world. What about the little girl? If I desert her to the bully, I have deserted the true meaning of Christian love – responsibility to my neighbor."

Hello Elhanan,

I don't necessarily disagree with your statement but can you show me scripture, in particular anything Jesus said, that might indicate He agrees with Mr Schaeffer. There are some that indicate Jesus doesn't agree with him eg. Matthew 5:39, 10:28

Thank you.

Not necessarily Jesus words, but they are in the Bible Psalm 82:4, Proverbs 24:11, Ezekiel 33:6 are all worth looking at. I realize they arnt words of Christ-but as I pointed out to noob earlier, all scripture is God Inspired, and Since Jesus was God, He wouldn't contradict anything He taught in the OT.

[Elhanan]

Hello blessedbythebest, we can speculate all day long about what Jesus truly meant. Of course Peter took the offensive - in defense of his master; albeit hastily. But when he took the offensive, what specifically does Jesus condemn him for? Better to allow scripture to speak for itself by taking a look at John 18:11 - ^"But Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword back into its sheath. Shall I not drink from the cup of suffering the Father has given me?” If Jesus meant that they should not carry literal swords he could have told Peter to get rid of it altogether but he did not do that and instead Jesus simply told Peter to put it back in its sheath. Moreover, did Jesus condemn this act of violence in and of itself? The answer is no as when Jesus admonished Peter, the specific reason he gave is so that the will of the Father would be fulfilled. That is respectfully why I think reference to sword as figurative is a weak argument.

[Guest ninhao]

Not necessarily Jesus words, but they are in the Bible Psalm 82:4, Proverbs 24:11, Ezekiel 33:6 are all worth looking at. I realize they arnt words of Christ-but as I pointed out to noob earlier, all scripture is God Inspired, and Since Jesus was God, He wouldn't contradict anything He taught in the OT.

Thank you Patriot for your input and yes I agree there will be no contradiction.

Can you give me an indication of why Jesus said not to fear death yet will tell us we should kill to save life ? Something Jesus said or did should possibly indicate this because there seems to be a contradiction here.

[The_Patriot21]

Speaks to the heart. We should never want to kill anyone, for any reason, nor am I condoning that action. Even if its justified, doesn't mean we should seek it. We see examples, especially in the OT where the Bible says its ok to take life, and examples where men did indeed kill, and use weapons, but we on the other hand, Jesus telling Peter to put his sword away. It seems a contradiction, but its not. The OT outlines when its ok to defend oneself and use lethal force 1: in self defense of yourself and family. 2: in defense of those who cannot protect themselves, the innocent. and 3: when God commands it. Peter, did not fulfill any of those 3-he probably thought he was fulfilling the first two, but he wasnt-Jesus was not defenseless.

Now with that being said, Jesus also taught love. He didn't want a bunch of radicals, running around, strapping bombs to their chests in His name, which is what Islam encourages. While the Bible does say that in instances the use of lethal force is ok-its not something that should ever be sought after. I believe, if you combine the teachings of the OT concerning lethal force-with Jesus love, you get the principle behind the term "discretion is the better part of valor" Peter, in this passage did not use discretion. A wise man does not seek out violence-but neither does he run from it.

[Elhanan]

Well-said patriot. I find it to be morally incongruous when we are called to be peacemakers and good Samaritans; yet somehow according to the pacifist position stand by idly and allow violence to be perpetrated against innocents when the opportunity may be available to us to stop it. Francis Schaeffer drives the point home:

"I am to love my neighbor as myself, in the manner needed, in the midst of the fallen world, at my particular point in history. This is why I am not a pacifist. Pacifism in the poor world in which we live – this lost world – means that we desert the people who need our greatest help...I come upon a big burly man beating a tiny tot to death...I plead with him to stop. Suppose he refuses? What does love mean now? Love means that I stop him in any way that I can, including hitting him. To me, this is not only necessary for humanitarian reasons; it is loyalty to Christ's commands concerning Christian love in a fallen world. What about the little girl? If I desert her to the bully, I have deserted the true meaning of Christian love – responsibility to my neighbor."

Hello Elhanan,

I don't necessarily disagree with your statement but can you show me scripture, in particular anything Jesus said, that might indicate He agrees with Mr Schaeffer. There are some that indicate Jesus doesn't agree with him eg. Matthew 5:39, 10:28

Thank you.

Hello ninhao, Matt 5:39 refers to turning the other cheek to our enemies. Again, one can take the literal or figurative approach to this passage. I see this passage as being figurative as Jesus is employing hyperbole to get his points across in the sermon on the mount. Why do I think this? Elsewhere in the same passage Jesus says we should gouge out our eye or cut off our hand if they cause us to sin. If I took this passage literally, I'd be blind and limbless by now. Instead Jesus is using hyperbole as a literary device to govern our relationships and emphasize the extent that we should extend ourselves to others and address our underlying motives for doing so. Furthermore, if Jesus meant his words to be taken literally, then Jesus would have most certainly have followed his own advice. In Jn 18:22-23, we see that after his apprehension, Jesus is slapped in the face by his captor. Does he then turn his other cheek and offer it to be slapped as well? These verses record that he did not do that and instead he gave a verbal retort.

[BlessedByTheBest]

Hello blessedbythebest, we can speculate all day long about what Jesus truly meant. Of course Peter took the offensive - in defense of his master; albeit hastily. But when he took the offensive, what specifically does Jesus condemn him for? Better to allow scripture to speak for itself by taking a look at John 18:11 - ^"But Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword back into its sheath. Shall I not drink from the cup of suffering the Father has given me?” If Jesus meant that they should not carry literal swords he could have told Peter to get rid of it altogether but he did not do that and instead Jesus simply told Peter to put it back in its sheath. Moreover, did Jesus condemn this act of violence in and of itself? The answer is no as when Jesus admonished Peter, the specific reason he gave is so that the will of the Father would be fulfilled. That is respectfully why I think reference to sword as figurative is a weak argument.

thank you.

fair enough, brother.

i think the Gospel of Matthew represents it best:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

i have said in earlier posts that while of course Christ referred to actual swords, the intent of his warning went beyond carnal preparations. is this speculation? considering the magnitude of the biggest event in history unfolding, i think it is reasonable to say no.

Christ didn't have to condemn the act of violence, his actions did the talking. he was only reiterating that His destiny must come to pass. there was no condemnation, but there was certainly no approval either, so this is a moot point.

so for this reason i will concede that i don't believe that the purses, bags, and swords can only be literally interpreted, but also figuratively.

thoughts?

A wise man does not seek out violence-but neither does he run from it.

easier said than done.

maybe this is an overly personal inquiry, but have you ever taken another man's life? do you know what it feels like to carry the weight of another man's soul upon yours?

i would never hope to, even if faced with a situation that supposedly required it. there are ways to subdue a would-be assailant that won't have me saying, "but Lord" one day.

obviously Peter had no issues whatsoever hacking at a man's head for the Lord.

though i must admit that the more i think about it, while hasty, it seems noble that he chose to attack a soldier while seemingly being at such a disadvantage...(not considering he was walking with GOD.)

but it displays a sense of rage that is ungodly, in my opinion.

regardless, i don't think Jesus would have, and He is my final authority and example.

[The_Patriot21]

to answer your question blessed, no I have never taken another mans life, and I hope and pray that I never have to. With that being said, in the right circumstances, I feel I could if I absolutly had to, but I have no wish to. I do own and carry a gun, but on the same note, I work very hard to avoid situations where it might be necessary to use it.

[Elhanan]

Blessed - I agree that a double meaning is a possibility. If so, my take would be a literal primary interpretation with a possible secondary figurative interpretation. There is a time and place for everything and our depiction of Jesus, and our conception of what he would or would not do depends upon historical context. Yes Jesus was passive as he first came as the Passover lamb led to slaughter. Having said that, His next appearing however will be as the Lion of Judah bringing destruction to those who oppose him.

[Guest ninhao]

Hello ninhao, Matt 5:39 refers to turning the other cheek to our enemies. Again, one can take the literal or figurative approach to this passage. I see this passage as being figurative as Jesus is employing hyperbole to get his points across in the sermon on the mount. Why do I think this? Elsewhere in the same passage Jesus says we should gouge out our eye or cut off our hand if they cause us to sin. If I took this passage literally, I'd be blind and limbless by now. Instead Jesus is using hyperbole as a literary device to govern our relationships and emphasize the extent that we should extend ourselves to others and address our underlying motives for doing so. Furthermore, if Jesus meant his words to be taken literally, then Jesus would have most certainly have followed his own advice. In Jn 18:22-23, we see that after his apprehension, Jesus is slapped in the face by his captor. Does he then turn his other cheek and offer it to be slapped as well? These verses record that he did not do that and instead he gave a verbal retort.

Thankyou for your assessment regarding Matthew 5:39.

Could you now give your opinion on Matthew 10:28 thank you. There appears to be a contradiction between this scripture and using deadly force.

[BlessedByTheBest]

Thank you patriot. Let us all pray for one another then.

Elhanan, thank you for your input here. Let us pray that when He comes in all His Glory with eyes like fire, and a sword for tongue, that we are found to be worthy enough to be on His heels.

God bless and love to you both.