The Christian Heart

[Khristeeanos]

By the way, my avatar picture was taken by Buena Vista, Colorado last year. I took two days to get alone with God and enjoy His beauty. This scene I took with a tripod as I gazed out over the scenery. I didn't have a fishing pole, just my iPod & camera.

[Jayyycuuup]

Lovely scripture about becoming a new creation in Christ, but what about the heart?

Thoughts?

My initial thought is that it was Christ who "recreated" us. If we consider that Christ is completely good and holy, wouldn't it then follow that whatever Christ gives is equally as good and holy? Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart. I am sort of misapplying the Scripture, but I don't think it is too big a leap.

I am guilty and did something I should not have done. . . In Jeremiah I kind of "dodged" around that question and reasoned my way around it, and is something that should never be done. I am confessing that fault and need to edit my post concerning that verse. That aspect does not really change-even as believers. Our spirit is willing but our flesh is weak- and it is to my understanding that the heart is indeed deceitful. (Mathew 26:41) It is not our hearts that grow, but our spirit (2 Corinthians 4:16) Out of the heart come the issues of life and through it does everything flow from it! Which means EVERYTHING- both "good" and "bad. (Proverbs 4:23) Within the heart comes the wickedness of man (Mark 7:21) and is in conflict with out spirit. (Galatians 5:17) The point in Jeremiah (IMO) is expressing this importance of Proverbs 3:5-6, of leaning on God FULLY. Not what we "feel is right" for our heart is deceitful! To set ourselves on the Spirit- not of the things of this world and certainly not our heart. For by it, are many lead astray, seeking with itching ears and falling prey to the wickedness that is set out upon us.

As for the heart being holy, what is your scripture for that? We are given the aspect of being a "new Creation" but we are also told that our flesh is wasting away- it is our SPIRIT, that grows in Him, not our flesh. For our flesh works contrary to God, and is at war with our spirit. The "reward" for our sin nature, is death to our earthly body- only way to escape it is upon death for then will we be present with the Lord. We change from flesh to spirit, not flesh bearing new flesh, being given God's spirit is what makes us a "new creation" for it is He who is IN us, that wills and does that which is good!

Thoughts?

[AmateurPoet03]

Jeremiah 17:9

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it"

Hi my friend Jacob

I appreciate your reply. I am of the conviction that an Old Testament Scripture may not be reflective of the Christian heart that has the Spirit of God in it. A few verses I would also like to introduce are:

Ezekiel 11:19

¹⁹ I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Luke 8:14-16

¹⁴ The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. ¹⁵ But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

It would appear that in the Old Covenant God specifically told us He would eventually give us a new and good heart and Jesus seems to say specifically that we have received it. I would like to hear some thoughts on this.

Also to you as well AmateurPoet

I am hoping to have a good discussion, not be a troll.

It was not my intent to be a troll. Did not mean to come off as one. Merely state my thoughts and leave it at that.

Wow, I am so sorry that my comment appeared directed towards you. I assure it wasn't. I was just trying to let you know that I intend to actually discuss this, not just post & run. I am seeking to further understand why I believe what I believe and see if it truly holds up to a contrary position. Please accept my apology!

Khristeeanos

You are fine. Seems you and I both wanted to assure one another of the same thing. There is no offense taken. Seems my words were not really well written or presented themselves. Phooey. Conversation is good as always.

[Khristeeanos]

I am guilty and did something I should not have done. . . In Jeremiah I kind of "dodged" around that question and reasoned my way around it, and is something that should never be done. I am confessing that fault and need to edit my post concerning that verse. That aspect does not really change-even as believers. Our spirit is willing but our flesh is weak- and it is to my understanding that the heart is indeed deceitful. (Mathew 26:41) It is not our hearts that grow, but our spirit (2 Corinthians 4:16) Out of the heart come the issues of life and through it does everything flow from it! Which means EVERYTHING- both "good" and "bad. (Proverbs 4:23) Within the heart comes the wickedness of man (Mark 7:21) and is in conflict with out spirit. (Galatians 5:17) The point in Jeremiah (IMO) is expressing this importance of Proverbs 3:5-6, of leaning on God FULLY. Not what we "feel is right" for our heart is deceitful! To set ourselves on the Spirit- not of the things of this world and certainly not our heart. For by it, are many lead astray, seeking with itching ears and falling prey to the wickedness that is set out upon us.

As for the heart being holy, what is your scripture for that? We are given the aspect of being a "new Creation" but we are also told that our flesh is wasting away- it is our SPIRIT, that grows in Him, not our flesh. For our flesh works contrary to God, and is at war with our spirit. The "reward" for our sin nature, is death to our earthly body- only way to escape it is upon death for then will we be present with the Lord. We change from flesh to spirit, not flesh bearing new flesh, being given God's spirit is what makes us a "new creation" for it is He who is IN us, that wills and does that which is good!

Thoughts?

I should point out that I believe we still have our flesh that we struggle with sin. I am not saying we are sinless creatures. Just that at core we are holy and pure. I think one of the best passages to point this out is found in Romans 7.

¹⁴ We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.¹⁵ I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.¹⁶ And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.¹⁷ As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.¹⁸ For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.¹⁹ For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.²⁰ Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

²¹ So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.²² For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;²³ but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.²⁴ What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?²⁵ Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

I believe he is saying that at his core (his heart) he is not the one who desires to sin, but his flesh is the one. And he then goes on to say thanks to God for being the one who delivers him from his flesh. He delights in God yet wrestles with sin still.

I don't normally like to use my own understanding (Proverbs 3 anyone? ha ha), but I keep thinking about how God gives His Sprit to live within us and how if God gives Himself (which is holy and pure) to dwell in us how can that not make us at our core holy and pure also.

[Jayyycuuup]

Khristeeanos

I should point out that I believe we still have our flesh that we struggle with sin. I am not saying we are sinless creatures. Just that at core we are holy and pure. I think one of the best passages to point this out is found in Romans 7.

Then the Heart is not our "core" for ALL things flow from it (Proverbs 4:23) if it is "holy" then it should not be in sin- and we know that it is- therefore it is apart of the flesh. We know that Jesus Christ is our sanctifier, and our righteousness- so your saying that once we become saved He is our heart? I do believe that we (once saved) are under His grace and are made new in Him- but to say that our heart is holy- is umbilical. We will get new bodies when Jesus returns and we rise- but until then is our flesh still dirty and filthy in sin.

We alone are not "holy" but it is Christ who dwells in us- He being our sanctifier cleanses us from our sins. God is Holy- we paid for. Hebrews 10:10 is highly mistranslated, the verse actually says this, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." but the modern day bible has switched the meaning, replacing Holy with sanctified. The error here is that people believe we are going to be like Christ- when the verse is referring to the sense we are sanctified in Christ blameless for He took our sins to the cross and paid for them, therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Him. Though "holy" in that verse is mentioned- the meaning behind it (imo) is misread.John 17:9 "For them I sanctify Myself, that they too may be truly sanctified."

¹⁴ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

¹⁵ For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

¹⁶ If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

¹⁷ Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

¹⁸ For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

¹⁹ For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

²⁰ Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

²¹ I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

²² For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

²³ But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

²⁴ O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

²⁵ I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I see no where in here that it says "my inner man." What translation do you use? And you say, "I don't normally like to use my own understanding (Proverbs 3 anyone? ha ha), but I keep thinking about how God gives His Sprit to live within us and how if God gives Himself (which is holy and pure) to dwell in us how can that not make us at our core holy and pure also." Which means your caling your Heart the place where God is? I do not see that in scripture, I do believe God dwells in us, but not in our heart, for our Heart is also under the law and conceived with our body in sin. He testifies with our spirit- not our heart. Though only God knows the heart- I believe that is referring to our intentions- for we know that all things flow from it and where sin begins. I might add, we are in a sense "pure" but it is by Jesus Christ atonement- it has nothing to do with us. Our flesh is still under the law- and because of that we will die- our body functions (including our heart) will cease and we will go to be with God. Our "temple" (body) will not be pure until we are risen from the grave. (Return of Christ.)

So if you could, I still need scripture that says our hearts are pure and holy and "good."

[gdemoss]

What is your view of the human heart for a Christian? Wicked or good & holy?

When I would to do good evil is present with me.

There is a tension between my Spirit and my flesh that makes it difficult to maintain a right standing before God.

I am admonished to purify my heart. To sanctify the Lord God in my heart, setting him apart from all else.

I have to exercise myself unto Godliness and take heed to what I hear as unto a bright light shining in a dark place, and that until the day dawned and the daystar arose in my heart.

I have to choose to live in the Spirit rather than the flesh. Choose life. I have a choice. Life and Death.

I am the I am that He said being molded by the Potter and not quite a finished product to be fired and kept.

Jesus told me that adulteries, fornication, murders and thefts come out of the heart and sometimes these things are offered to me from within my being so all I can believe is that they come through my heart.

Jesus said that out of the over abundance of the heart my mouth would speak. Not everything that tries to get out of my mouth makes it because some of it is quite evil in nature and I bite my tongue that cannot be tamed.

John said a man who has this hope in him purifies himself even as he is pure. Why the need for purification if I am already pure?

Jesus said that they were clean every whit except for their feet through the word he had spoken unto them and that he kept them in the fathers name. As long as I am in this body I have the need of another to wash my feet. This relates to the condition of my heart.

Sanctification is a process that Jesus prayed God would do to us through His truth, stating that his word is truth and Paul admonished me to meditate on things that were virtuous, pure, good and holy. The word of God is fuel food for my heart that I eat and his Spirit drink for my refreshing. My mind needs to be renewed consistently and regularly every time something dirty gets in.

My conclusion is that purity of heart is something that is a goal through a process of consistent exercise and spiritual fitness that can be perverted if left unattended through the folding of hands to sleep and resting on our laurels.

Peace can only be in Christ.

[Qnts2]

I believe it is good and holy, and that is still a surprise to me.

A while back I did a study of our condition after salvation. It was something I believe God prompted me to do with the simple question of 'Who am I'. But the question as I discovered was more, Who am I in Jesus. Thru this, I discovered my view of myself was based more on who I was and not who I am. So this was a rather dramatic change in my thoughts.

Let me start by saying, the first thing I discovered was that when we are saved, we are co-crucified with Messiah, and our old man died. We are not who we were before Jesus. We are new creations. I'm am going to post a series of scripture verses. Yes, there are going to be a lot, but this list is not complete.

Romans 6:4

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7:4

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Ephesians 1

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Galatians 4

4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

1 John 3:1

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Holy

Romans 11:16

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Colossians 1

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Colossians 3:12

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved

2 Timothy 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

1 Peter 2:5

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Loved

Romans 5:5

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Lovely scripture about becoming a new creation in Christ, but what about the heart?

Thoughts?

Although I did not concentrate on the state of the heart, there is one two scriptures in my list which discuss the heart.

Romans 5:5

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

In addition, we are told that our hearts were stone and now flesh. Plus, our hearts are now circumcised.

Our bodies are still effected by the fall, and our literal heart is part of that body, so when speaking about the new creation, we are not speaking about a change to the physical body. That will be fixed with the resurrection.

So our hearts and minds would be a part of the soul. Our heart I believe is speaking of our emotions and our mind is not our brain but our thoughts.

A heart of stone is one which is hardened to God. Our hearts are no longer hardened to God but as a part of the New Creation loves God and desires to please God. It is a heart of 'flesh', with desires and positive feelings towards God. It has undergone a change as a part of the New Creation where we cry 'Abba Father'.

The question is not so much if we have changed, dramatically, but why do we still sin. Does our sin mean our hearts are wicked, and the answer must be no. Paul says it is sin in us, but is not us. Not our soul.

I am one of those people who thinks on all kinds of things. I analyze whatever catches my attention. That is why I'm a computer geek. Anyway, being a thinker, I tend to base our actions on our thoughts, start with the thought and the hearts will react to what we are thinking.

In my view, I found that while we are new creations, our memories were not erased so we remember everything between the time when our old man was alive and when we became a new creation. We like to do what makes us feel good. I also believe our motivation is to receive love, acceptance, being considered worthy, recognized for our worth. etc etc etc. So, we do things in our old man to achieve what we want and need. If I think being rich will get the recognition of others as being someone good or better, I will do those things which I have found helps to make money. If I want to be popular, or have a lot of friends, I will act in ways which I believe will make me popular to have worth. Or it can be even being in ministry. Or dressing well. Or being a business owner or manager, or some other leader. Or becoming a counselor, or anything we perceive which will show us in a positive light to ourselves or others. So, we have already learned methods to achieve what we think will fulfill our needs or wants. Our minds have ways of thinking which have developed since our birth, and these have not been erased.

So as New Creations, we want to please God, and obey God, but our 'programming' includes thoughts and ways of acting to achieve our wants and needs before our desire was God. And before we realize that all of our real needs come from God. So, we sin. Scripture says the solution is the 'renewing of our minds'. Becoming conformed to Messiah.

[Khristeeanos]

Sorry I've been away for a few days. Such great posts deserve better than a quick reply with little thought & prayer.

[SHIROI RAKUEN]

I will not linger much on this but I must say something.

Whoever answered "A combination of wicked and good" has not understood the gospel message.

Not to mention those who answered "Deceitful and desperately wicked". Those must be of them that use Grace in order to slay The Law.

Blessings

[Guest]

.... Whoever answered "A combination of wicked and good" has not understood the gospel message.....

.... Not to mention those who answered "Deceitful and desperately wicked". Those must be of them that use Grace in order to slay The Law....

Good

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Mark 10:18

Wicked

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

And Why All The Fortune Cookie Talk

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

And The Curses

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Or Did I Miss The Point... Again

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16