How to prove Jesus is God

[Guest shiloh357]

What is more:

John 8:17-18 Jesus quotes from the law the necessity that evidence, to be valid, must be agreed upon by two witnesses.

[Ovedya]

Masterfully done, Godman!!

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Thanks, brother.

In my past dealings with this subject I have found that opposers to Jesus' divinity lack the Biblical balance between the Lord's divinity and His humanity. Heresies like this will usually sacrifice one for other. The sacrificing of Jesus' divinity for His humanity is typical of the Jehovah's Witness types (There's a name for this heresy, but it escapes me at the moment). The sacrificing of Jesus' humanity for His divinity is typical of the Gnostics and the Helenists. Both of these influences pervaded the faith in the early church, and have continued throughout church history.

Just goes to show you how balanced we need to be, Scripturally speaking.

[Matthitjah]

God-man,

God Bless you brother. You human computer of Scriptural knowledge.

This is twice Skillet that you have been shown this. I showed it to you not so elequently in PM form. Which you rejected.

I want you to see that it is more than just my opinion. Rather the Truth of the matter as understood by the Body of Christ.

Peace,

Dave

[seraph]

Perhpas we need to clarify some things.

I agere with your scritpure and it corrisponds to Jesus manifesting God's glory.

Maybe our defintions are different. I am saying that Jesus is NOT literally the Father, as he is the son of God, not the GOd the son.

Why would God need to have learned obidence if Jesus is literaly the father (God) IF they are the same person, would they not have the same knowlege?

Yet from what I gather, you are picking and choosing when Jesus was GOd and when Jesus was not God so that he could conviently not know things and then know them when he is GOd again?

Luke 2:52 

And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.

So Jesus had to increase in favour with God, but if Jesus IS God did he incerase in his own favour?

Aslo

Hebrews 5:7 

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 

This is very interesting because if Jesus IS God, why couldn't he save himsefl from death? The father had to save him.

Does this make sense the kind of distinction the scritpure is showing ot us? THey are seperate persons, yes Jesus has the fulness of God dwelling in him, he is the son of God making manifest God's glory, but he is obvioulsy not God the father, otherwise he would know the same things as GOd, have the same will and be able to save hismelf from death.

peace.

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Philippians 2:5b-8

Christ Jesus,

who, although He existed in the form of God, [was fully divine as Jesus is God the Son

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Oh so because more than one person agree's with this belief it must be right mr. luke? Indeed popularity of belief does not count for anything, otherwise all the cahtolics would be right in their doctrine of purgatory.

And since now I am be judged as speaking "herisey" and am apperntly a type of Jehova's WIntess...I now feel most welcome to this board.

Its funny Godman that you answered my scritpure but failed to answer my question.

You say CHrist himself transformed his human flesh into immortaly, but the scritpure says differently

Heb 5:

7In the days of his flesh, Jesus[1] offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

THe father was the only one who could save JEsus from death, Jesus couldn't otherwise why would he be prayer to the father if jesus was the father.

This is some kind of cycle we are in, you quote scritpures and don't answer mine.

AGain,

You tried to show Jesus saying his "oneness" with the father to account for have TWO witnesses or more and Jesus seperates himself from the father...one plus one is two, but according to you, one plus one equils one. You did not asnwer the question.

Further

John 17

20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

How are Jesus and his father one? Just like we should be one with them. In Purpose, for Jesus was sent to do his father's will, and complete his purpose, just like are susposed to do

John 7:

16So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. 17 If anyone's will is to do God's[5] will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

2 Corinthians 5

18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling[1] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

STOP tyring to use Chirst as saying he is "one" as being the samebeing as God, for clearly the context is wrong. THe same purpose is in CHrist as GOD SENT HIM. IF jesus was God did GOd send God?

the scritpures are clear about God and Jesus being seperate.

Do you read your own posts, look at what you rea claiming, Luke says God had to become "like man" in Hebrews...that is baloney! God crated man! Why would he have to become like us? He knows exactly what we are. Jesus took on OUR nature as a man (do you deny this?) then he died (a mortal man, do you deny this?)

Then as Godman tried to say, JEsus transformed his own nature into immorralyt...the scritpures speak agaisnt this.

God gave Jesus immortality as the FIRSTFUITS of the ressurection.

peace.

[BigD]

It says in the scripture SRMF,

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Here's my question for the trinitarians ..we know that God is spirit ..so before Jesus was "human" He should have been Spirit ..please correct me if I am wrong! ..now after resurrection Jesus had a physical body because He carried the scars of His crucifixion which His disciples saw ..He was in flesh and bone as He said ..

Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So do you now believe that the "third person" of God has forever changed His form from being a Spirit from eternity to a human flesh and bone for eternity???

Psa 102:25  "Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Psa 102:26  "Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

Psa 102:27  "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end

God doesn't change.

[Ovedya]

BigD.

Nothing in Scriptures indicates that God can not or will not change His form as He pleases. He is God, after all. The verses in Scripture that talk about God's immutability refer to His nature. God is unchanging in His holiness, His righteousness, His divinity, etc. Yet can God change His mind? Yup. Can God change His form as He pleases? You bet. God appeared before Abraham as a man, He appeared before Moses as a burning bush, and He went forth before the children of Israel as a pillar of smoke by day and as a pillar of fire by night.

[Ovedya]

Skillet,

I want to get back to your last post point-by-point. However I am short on time this morning. Just briefly, though, I want to address your comment about whether I believe you are a Jehovah's Witness or not.

I have to tell you that I am not completely convinced that you are not a JW. However, it really does not matter whether you are or you are not. The heresy I mentioned earlier, to which you responded, is called the Arian heresy. Do a Google search on it.

The Arian heresy was promoted by a man named Arius in the 4th century. Arius was a priest in the Roman church who claimed that the three Persons of the Godhead, the Father Son and Spirit, were materially separate from one another, and that the Father created the Son. Arius taught that the Son of God was not eternal, was not always with God, but was made by the Father before the creation of everything - even time.

The Arian heresy relegated the Lord Jesus (Who is the Son of God) to a position of absolute subservience to the Father. But although the heresy did not strip Him of his divinity (Arius did not teach that Jesus lacked the divine nature), it placed Him in a position of lower power and authority than the Father. Conceivably in this position, Jesus could have fallen to sin, and become disqualified from His position as the Messiah.

The Arian heresy is prevalent in the Jehovah's Witnesses. It is also prevalent in the Iglesia Ni Cristo (A cult in the Philippines), and in a few smaller organizations. The Jehovah's Witnesses have been the main proponents of this heresy for many years.

So really it doesn't matter whether you are a Jehovah's Witness or not. You are clearly promoting the same heresy here.

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Spare me your tuants Godman, I am a university history majour and If you really want a history lesson on the trinity I'll give it to you.

You should know the doctrine of the trinity was endorsed by Emporer Constantie in 325 with the Niceen creed. He was obviously not a true believer for he still worshiped Roman pegan gods such as Saul Evictus. The primary source eveidence resides in the coins we have from that time period. Even after 325 the coins had a picture of Contatine on one side and Saul Evictus on the other.

Constantine used Christianity as a political move and was not sinceer. He sided with Athanusius on "the trinity" not of scirtpure, but of own self intrest.

Me a JW? You know what, to tell you the outright truth, I DONT CARE if you think I am or not because I am not one to judge. I'll let Christ do the judging. I know I am not, but even if you want to bleieve I am it makes no difference to me. I'll let the scritpure do the talking, which by the way you still havnet answered to.

Lastly, Godman, you have quite the judemental attitude, I calmely suggest you take a few breaths, relax and get back to the blibe, calling me heritic, JW or anything esle you want does not support your belief by any way shape or form.

Here is what you said regarding Jesus bearing witenss

I judge [or condemn] no one" (cf. John 7:24). Then the Lord proceeds to explain that His testimony is one with the Father's.

What you are ignoring is the key verse to Christ's oneness with the Father; that's in verse 19, which says, "They said to Him, Where is Your Father? Jesus answered, You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also." The next verse tells of how the Pharisees could not seize Jesus because of this apparent blasphemy of making Himself one with the Father.

And yet you still havent answered the question. What is one plus one? Surely you agree it is two (or do you deny that?) How many witensses were there to testify with Jesus....himsellf (one) and his father (two)

Lets get back to the scritpure and quite the accusations please Godman. You can teke your doctrine from Athanusisu and the word of man. I'll take my doctrine from the word of God only.

peace.

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Oh and by the way, Godman, why don't you read the account of the burning bush. God didn't appear to moses as a burning bush, you are just making that up. The scirpure says

Ex 3

1Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.

The angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, doing what? Manifesting God's glory to him. Was it God, NO it was not, it was an angel. This kind of made up testimoney makes me doubt your scritpure interpritation. What did Jesus do, he manifested GOd's glory to the people, this is why people could see Jesus and not die, but no man can see God's face and live (Ex 33) Do you understand what I am saying?

peace.