Bible_Gazer Posted April 25, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 450 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 152 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/05/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2013 Scripture only mentions two functions; One is to follow the Lamb wherever He goes, then Two is to sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000. Hey bible gazer, how does what you state below measure up with the above? The passage says it's a new song, and that no one else can learn it, so how do you conclude a) it's the same song, and b) that the four living creatures and the twenty four elders know it? They are the first fruits from the earth. Redeemed from among mankind. Follow Jesus - also on white horses in Rev.19 - the army of the Lord Kings and Priest riegn with Christ 1,000 years The Bride The first resurrection group they did sing a song, its the same one in Rev.5 when the four best and 24 elders sang being from humanity of different tongues and nations. and their is another group the Jewish 144,000 sealed I'm also curious how you conclude these are two different groups of 144,000, based on the following verses it appears to me they are the same group. You will notice in the first passage it states "we", meaning more than one, which is more specific in the second passage. Revelation 7:3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads. Actually the four beast and elder are the 144,000 redeemed from among different tongues and nation. You would have to figure out what these 4 beast represent, they do come from among mankind.(not just four of them) Its like the Bride- is she just one woman or is she the church saints. "Metaphor" Rev. 7 says 144,000 Jews people not Gentiles. They are not the first fruits. The Bride is the first fruits taken from the earth. Everybody has to have Jesus in their forehead to be saved anyway. No matter what group gets saved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted April 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2013 Try 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (NKJV) Although not specifically given the title or name "restrainer," it is intimated here "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." Who is "He" who restrains. He is capitalized, meaning part of the GODHEAD. Who is being restrained? That would be the Antichrist. Who restrains the Antichrist until "He" is removed to reveal the Antichrist? I believe it is the Holy Spirit. Who do you think "He' is? Try understanding scripture when you read it instead of looking for ways to challange me at every turn. Your actions towards me are offensive and I wish you would stop. Otherwise I will just ignore you. Be blessed, brother!! I have six different versions of the bible here, I went through each of them, and not one of them capitalizes he in that passage, from my KJV to my NIV. I guess I must be seeing things then. Look for yourself. I guess you didn't read the footnotes. As far as taking an Internet rendition (which is clearly more recent), I'll go with my physical KJV in my hands that does not capitalize he as more accurate. I don't subscribe to the "if it says it on the Internet it must be true crowd." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted April 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2013 Scripture only mentions two functions; One is to follow the Lamb wherever He goes, then Two is to sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000. Hey bible gazer, how does what you state below measure up with the above? The passage says it's a new song, and that no one else can learn it, so how do you conclude a) it's the same song, and b) that the four living creatures and the twenty four elders know it? They are the first fruits from the earth. Redeemed from among mankind. Follow Jesus - also on white horses in Rev.19 - the army of the Lord Kings and Priest riegn with Christ 1,000 years The Bride The first resurrection group they did sing a song, its the same one in Rev.5 when the four best and 24 elders sang being from humanity of different tongues and nations. and their is another group the Jewish 144,000 sealed I'm also curious how you conclude these are two different groups of 144,000, based on the following verses it appears to me they are the same group. You will notice in the first passage it states "we", meaning more than one, which is more specific in the second passage. Revelation 7:3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads. Actually the four beast and elder are the 144,000 redeemed from among different tongues and nation. You would have to figure out what these 4 beast represent, they do come from among mankind.(not just four of them) Its like the Bride- is she just one woman or is she the church saints. "Metaphor" Rev. 7 says 144,000 Jews people not Gentiles. They are not the first fruits. The Bride is the first fruits taken from the earth. Everybody has to have Jesus in their forehead to be saved anyway. No matter what group gets saved Ok, I think I see how you arrive at this conclusion The number 4 standing for the created universe ( 4 points of the compass, 4 winds of the earth) The 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles represent the redeemed from both covenants Therefore the 144,000 may stand for the entire church throughout history Is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I guess you didn't read the footnotes. As far as taking an Internet rendition (which is clearly more recent), I'll go with my physical KJV in my hands that does not capitalize he as more accurate. I don't subscribe to the "if it says it on the Internet it must be true crowd." Technically, on this point, print or internet or any other medium, an uppercase "H" on the word He is always an interpretation if the person represented by the pronoun is not specified, since the Greek manuscripts use all lowercase. Sometimes the context makes it very clear who is being spoken of, unlike this passage where we try to make educated guesses. 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. NASB With so many personal pronouns, it even takes work just being certain which 'he' applies to whom anyway. There is another complication though, the restrainer in verse 7, has a masculine personal pronoun, in verse 6 the restrainer has an impersonal pronounoun, and is referred to as a what, not a who! This is I guess, how some come up with things like the Roman Empire, or the Church etc, as the restrainer. In terms of good translation, it would probably have been better if we had never made up the tradition of capitalizing pronouns in the first place, and left it to the readers to figure out if God was intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted April 25, 2013 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2013 After the rapture event, the Holy Spirit, sometimes called "the restrainer" (since He serves as a restraint upon evil from completely running rampant on the world) no longer seals all believers in salvation but returns to His former role (as illustrated in the OT) of coming upon individuals to help them maintain their faith through the Tribulation. Where in scripture is the Holy Spirit ever referred to as the restrainer? Counselor, yes, comforter, yes, restrainer, not once. Try 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (NKJV) Although not specifically given the title or name "restrainer," it is intimated here "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." Who is "He" who restrains. He is capitalized, meaning part of the GODHEAD. Who is being restrained? That would be the Antichrist. Who restrains the Antichrist until "He" is removed to reveal the Antichrist? I believe it is the Holy Spirit. Who do you think "He' is? Try understanding scripture when you read it instead of looking for ways to challange me at every turn. Your actions towards me are offensive and I wish you would stop. Otherwise I will just ignore you. Be blessed, brother!! I don't see any intimation about the identity of the restrainer here, at all. Honestly, I see nothing that wing has said as being offensive, he was challenging you on a theological point, which we should all do with each other if we feel there is an error. As for myself, I see absolutely no evidence of the identity of the restrainer. The problem with this line of reasoning is that there's an entire doctrine that is partially built on what you call an intimation. There is no foundation of rock there, it's most definitively sand. If your initial premise is unprovable then the doctrine has to be changed or has to go, this doctrine being specific with regards to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer mentioned in 2 Thess. Here it is word for word from the NKJV: 2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. Here it is from the ESV: 2Th 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. Here it is from the NASB: 2Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. The case that I'm making here is that there is no case to be made based on these two verses as to the identity of the restrainer. All we can do is make guesses, basically. I don't even see a tacit intimation. I see nothing making reference to the identity insofar as revealing it. All we are really told here is that the audience that he is writing to at the time knows the identity. What is the big deal? I stated that the Holy Spirit is sometimes call "the Restrainer." Through interpretation. Down through the years there have been many different views on the identity of the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:7. Some of the most popular have been the State of Israel, the Roman Empire, the general principle of law and government, the Archangel Michael, the Holy Spirit, and the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit embodied in the Church. That is my reference point. You have come to your own conclusions, I to mine. I don't care!! Make the word mean whatever you want it to mean. It doesn't change the facts. When you say it doesn't change the facts what do you mean? What facts are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 When you say it doesn't change the facts what do you mean? What facts are you referring to? Must be those especially pesky facts Steve, the elusive ones that cannot be proven from scripture, you know the kind. It would be a great project for some good logigian one day, to outline all the points in all of the various eschatological theories and catalogue how many facts can actually be discovered. I would not be surprised if there are not many fewer than many beleive in every camp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted April 28, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted April 28, 2013 Technically, on this point, print or internet or any other medium, an uppercase "H" on the word He is always an interpretation if the person represented by the pronoun is not specified, since the Greek manuscripts use all lowercase. Sometimes the context makes it very clear who is being spoken of, unlike this passage where we try to make educated guesses. 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. NASB With so many personal pronouns, it even takes work just being certain which 'he' applies to whom anyway. There is another complication though, the restrainer in verse 7, has a masculine personal pronoun, in verse 6 the restrainer has an impersonal pronounoun, and is referred to as a what, not a who! This is I guess, how some come up with things like the Roman Empire, or the Church etc, as the restrainer. In terms of good translation, it would probably have been better if we had never made up the tradition of capitalizing pronouns in the first place, and left it to the readers to figure out if God was intended. An even better point, I didn't think of it since I don't have that resource readily available to me, I just knew it was not so in any of the various translations I do have. And I agree with you, it would have been better if people had never taken liberties with scripture, it's deceptive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted April 28, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 28, 2013 Just a short add on: 2 Thes 5,6 - Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things. And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. v7 - For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who holds it back, will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. It appears that those in Pauls day knew who is holding lawlessness back. Why don't we know now?? Col 1:13,14 - For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness, and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Who rescues us?? In our lives, (we have the flesh battling, and we have the Spirit battling); We have lawlessness and we have the Spirit battling for control of our souls. Who wins? He who is fed the Most. The more we allow the Holy Spirt to control "our will", the futher from the flesh (lawlessness) dominating us (our will) we are. Where does our battle lie?? In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted April 28, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted April 28, 2013 Just a short add on: 2 Thes 5,6 - Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things. And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. v7 - For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who holds it back, will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. It appears that those in Pauls day knew who is holding lawlessness back. Why don't we know now?? Col 1:13,14 - For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness, and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Who rescues us?? In our lives, (we have the flesh battling, and we have the Spirit battling); We have lawlessness and we have the Spirit battling for control of our souls. Who wins? He who is fed the Most. The more we allow the Holy Spirt to control "our will", the futher from the flesh (lawlessness) dominating us (our will) we are. Where does our battle lie?? In Christ Montana Marv The battle with holding back the enemy, in my opinion we see scripture demonstrate that the angels do this, led by Michael. Who hurled the devil and his angels to the earth? Who binds him for 1000 years? I could be wrong, this is just my personal conclusion based on what we know of angels and their purpose, and that points to them doing battle on our behalf (At the Lords command), in the spiritual realm. Psalm 91:9 If you make the Most High your dwelling-- even The Lord, who is my refuge---10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent. 11 For He will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; 12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. 13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. Another reason Paul may have suggested that they knew is this. This is a segment from my study bible, not my words In earlier times, people freely accepted the existence of angels and accorded them honor and respect. Jewish people retold stories of how angels had assisted Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Balaam, and Daniel. (In fact, several New Testament letters warn Jewish Christians against the common practice of worshiping angels.). To prove its argument about Christ being superior, Hebrews must show that angels served His purposes, not vice versa. This clip is in regards to the scripture in Hebrews chapter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted April 28, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 28, 2013 Just a short add on: 2 Thes 5,6 - Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things. And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. v7 - For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who holds it back, will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. It appears that those in Pauls day knew who is holding lawlessness back. Why don't we know now?? Col 1:13,14 - For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness, and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Who rescues us?? In our lives, (we have the flesh battling, and we have the Spirit battling); We have lawlessness and we have the Spirit battling for control of our souls. Who wins? He who is fed the Most. The more we allow the Holy Spirt to control "our will", the futher from the flesh (lawlessness) dominating us (our will) we are. Where does our battle lie?? In Christ Montana Marv The battle with holding back the enemy, in my opinion we see scripture demonstrate that the angels do this, led by Michael. Who hurled the devil and his angels to the earth? Who binds him for 1000 years? I could be wrong, this is just my personal conclusion based on what we know of angels and their purpose, and that points to them doing battle on our behalf (At the Lords command), in the spiritual realm. Psalm 91:9 If you make the Most High your dwelling-- even The Lord, who is my refuge---10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent. 11 For He will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; 12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. 13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. So to say that Michael is the Restrainer; or to say the the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer; toss up - for neither are referenced in 2 Thes as the Restrainer. In Daniel 12, At that time; Michael is referenced as Israels protector will arise. Does not say he is taken out of the way. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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