A question of ethics

[wingnut-]

Muslims have food laws and what is ok to it is called 'Halal'. Not that I know much about their system of certifying food as 'clean' or fit to eat.

It means the food has been blessed by an imam, and is in regards to meat such as beef or chicken.

[Qnts2]

Muslims have food laws and what is ok to it is called 'Halal'. Not that I know much about their system of certifying food as 'clean' or fit to eat.

It means the food has been blessed by an imam, and is in regards to meat such as beef or chicken.

I did not expect that. That Halal food was blessed by an imam. Kosher food is not food blessed by a Rabbi, but is food which is permitted to eat, and slaughtered, picked and processed in a biblically valid way. So I thought Halal would be the kind of food allowed and slaughtered etc, in the proper way. Oh well. I guess I shouldn't assume things.

[Guest ninhao]

I made it quite plain that I was not condemning anyone. That this is what I would have to do, as I see the food stamp programs rules and how I would have to live out my walk with the Lord under it.

For my opinions I have been solidly condemned as legalistic etc by no less than 3 people on this thread, one of whom is a mod.

Hello AyinJade,

I agree with your stance in this matter and voted as such.

I also see merit in the other arguments.

[The_Patriot21]

I did read your posts. I see nothing wrong with discussing the "bits and pieces". I was just curious why you felt that way. From what I see in your posts, the thorn in your side is the money. You want to restrict what others have because you can't have it. (steaks and lobster) I was just wondering why? I mean really, who cares what other people are eating?

Did you know that there are military families on foodstamps? Active, retired and disabled.

First off, if you had read my posts, you will see I already answered the questions you posed, so clearly, you did not, or did not understand the answer-in which case, its fine but say you didn't understand it. Im against people on food stamps, on the whole, getting the expensive stuff, because its a waste of taxpayer money, its not teaching them wise money management (i.e. if you cant afford that stuff, don't get it) and its enabling people who abuse the system.

As far as military families, and veterans, I would be far more willing to offer leeway here. Military men and women, arnt abusing the system, those men and women in the service work hard, and don't get paid anywhere near enough, for what they do, and in all honesty, I think they should be given far more benefits then they are currently, and families of vets and disabled vets, I think should have their own program for food-and yes, it should include the high dollar steaks and lobster.

Another thing, I wouldnt be opposed to, is letting people use food stamps use them for everything-however, make it so people who get food stamps, (not counting military people and the disabled, and even them depending) work for them. I know, a lot of states have problems with trash alongside the highway-and it costs money to hire people to clean them. Have those able bodied people who apply for food stamps, go out there and work for them, have them clean up those roads. Have them paint the roads, etc etc. And even some of the disabled, do jobs that are fitting for them-perhaps filing paperwork, or maintaining a website or something along those lines. Make them earn what they get, teach them to work for a living. Goes back to, give a man fish he will eat for a day-teach a man to fish, and he will eat for a lifetime.

Again, obviously, there are some people, because of disabilities and whatnot, who arnt going to be able to work. But there are several, who just don't know how-they were raised on welfare and food stamps and dont even know how to escape this, this could be a valuable tool to teach them how to rise above it.

[Guest man]

I did read your posts. I see nothing wrong with discussing the "bits and pieces". I was just curious why you felt that way. From what I see in your posts, the thorn in your side is the money. You want to restrict what others have because you can't have it. (steaks and lobster) I was just wondering why? I mean really, who cares what other people are eating?

Did you know that there are military families on foodstamps? Active, retired and disabled.

First off, if you had read my posts, you will see I already answered the questions you posed, so clearly, you did not, or did not understand the answer

I was just giving you an opportunity to explain in the event you misspoke. But apparently you didn't so I'll go with it.

You mentioned the waste of tax dollars and how they could be better spent elsewhere. Did you know your tax dollars pay for abortions?

You think people on government assistance should be restricted from what they can purchase because if "you" can't afford it, they shouldn't be able to have it either. The Lord tells us not to covet.

You attempt to make a distinction between the common everyday foodstamp user and those in the military. There isn't one. Poor is poor. Showing partiality is something else the Lord tells us not to do.

You commented on the intelligence of those who use foodstamps by saying they sould be taught how to use coupons. I don't even know what to say to that.

You want those on government assistance to have to work for their handouts. As if being poor isn't humiliating enough. If jobs were that easy to come by, the unemployment rate wouldn't be as high as it is. Did you know that many who are on foodstamps actually do have jobs and you want to add more burdens to their lives?

I don't understand the mentality of looking down on those less fortunate.

[Guest LadyC]

man:

if you don't mind, i'd like to respond to a couple of the things you said, even though i can't speak for the_patriot... and even though i don't agree with ALL of his position, i certainly understand where he's coming from and agree with the logic.

you said:

You attempt to make a distinction between the common everyday foodstamp user and those in the military. There isn't one. Poor is poor. Showing partiality is something else the Lord tells us not to do.

that's not necessarily partiality. patriot is distinguishing those who work hard (the mlitary) from those who don't... you can assume that he's giving exclusive "exemption" to those in the military, but he didn't say that. he just used them as an example because you had. and from a BIBLICAL perspective, if someone is capable of, but unwilling to work, then they should not be given any food.

2 Thessalonians 3:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁰ For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.

You want those on government assistance to have to work for their handouts. As if being poor isn't humiliating enough. If jobs were that easy to come by, the unemployment rate wouldn't be as high as it is. Did you know that many who are on foodstamps actually do have jobs and you want to add more burdens to their lives?

of course being poor is humiliating. working for what a family is given doesn't humiliate them further, it empowers them and restores their dignity. and yes, the economy is pretty bad in many parts of the country, and many who have jobs are under-employed and still can't make ends meet. but what does that have to do with dignifying them by letting them earn their food through community service? you make it sound like the patriot was suggesting they clean out sewer lines with their bare hands or something. he made suggestions of work that could be done even from home... filing, maintaining websites, etc... things that would also give them new skills or hone old ones, which would enable them to be more qualified for higher paying positions when they become available.

You commented on the intelligence of those who use foodstamps by saying they sould be taught how to use coupons. I don't even know what to say to that.

i really have to take issue with this one. nowhere did he or anyone else equate being taught how to use coupons with a lack of intelligence. if you think couponing is that easy, i challenge you to try it for a month. just one month. i've done it. i got a bug up my tale two years ago to try it, and it was by far the hardest work i've ever done. so much so that i gave up within about two months or so. it is NOT as simple as clipping a coupon and taking it to the store and just getting a discount. learning how to coupon takes time and dedication, and a brain that is capable of compartmentalizing, and it requires great organizational skills. if all you do is clip a coupon and take it to the store with you, you're not going to save much in the long run... and in fact, may very well end up spending more than you would have otherwise.

to teach someone how to use coupons properly and effectively is a FANTASTIC idea. even if they don't become extreme couponers. the principals and methods surrounding couponing are invaluable lessons and can still save you money even if you don't clip anything. because couponing is so much more than you think. and by assuming it is brainless work like you did, you're actually the one undermining the IQ of others.

couponing skills include (but aren't limited to)

*knowing each store and what their typical (non-sale) price run for the items you regularly purchase

*being able to look at the sale ads and know which items are going to be had for the best price at the different stores

*knowing which of those stores doubles or triples coupons, and being able to calculate the difference, because without that knowledge, the previous skill may be inaccurate.

*knowing which stores will price match and what each store's rules are for price matching. some stores will match within the county, some within the city, some within a larger region. some will match "same or similar" items, allowing you to substitute brands for someone else's advertised special. some will allow you to match sale ads only from stores who do not have a loyalty card, others will let you match sale ads from any store.

*having a SYSTEM for keeping track of physical coupons means not only keeping them organized, but means keeping expired ones culled out of the bunch.

*knowing where to find the best printable coupons online, and which stores will accept them.

*being able to route and plan your shopping trip so that you can get the best deals at each store without wasting a lot of gas.

*knowing how and when to use loyalty points to get a discount on groceries or on gas.

*understanding how CVS and Walgreens work... you can get amazing deals, even get money BACK on your purchases, if you know exactly how to do it... and it's not easy. you may have to make several transactions at one time, in a specific order, to be able to work their system to your best advantage. for instance, if you buy items a, b, and c, and each item gives rewards bucks, you can purchase the items individually, use those rewards on the next item, etc. but it's actually more complicated than i'm describing when you put it into practice. i used to go into those stores after midnight so that they night cashier could literally walk me through it. even after two months i never got good at it.

* knowing what day and time different stores mark down meats and other items as reduced for quick sale.

*being aware of what days produce trucks come to each store helps ensure you're getting your veggies for the best possible price.

*knowing how to plan meals, or how to cook ahead for freezing, is also a huge part of the couponing mentality.

*knowing how to do price comparison is critical. being able to compare not only the price on the shelf label, but to calculate the coupon (and whether it is doubled or tripled) into that comparison is invaluable knowledge.

people who coupon effectively work it like a full time job. it can literally take as much as 40 hours to plan each week's shopping trip. do you still think it's an insult to teach people those skills?

The_Patriot:

i think you missed my question to you earlier. about the restaurants. given that only four states allow foodstamps at participating restaurants, and that very few restaurants participate, and that the only food stamp recipients eligible to use theirs at restaurants are those who are unable to store and/or prepare their own food (homeless people, elderly, disabled people)... does that change your opinion of the program? it did mine.

( i see most formatting options on this forum are broken, too. darn.)

[GoldenEagle]

Well, I am learning some things about the food stamp program.

I hope they never make a rule concerning brands of food which may be purchased. Muslims have food laws and what is ok to it is called 'Halal'. Not that I know much about their system of certifying food as 'clean' or fit to eat. Jewish people who are observant can only eat food certified as Kosher. Off brands or generic brands are not usually certified as Kosher or Halal. Most major brands do go for the certification. So, if food stamps did make a ruling on generic brands being required, Jews and Muslims could not use the food stamp program even if they needed to.

The U.S. with religious freedom is a country which built it's laws to allow people of all religions to live safely and follow their religions. This was recognized as necessary as the first settlers were escaping religious persecution in church/state countries. What that means to me is that we need to protect the rights of other religions.

Another thing I find strange. No feed for animals allowed. So a family could not buy feed for a young calf and raise it for meat for the family. Or buy feed for a goat for milk. Or chickens.

This would be interesting in bold... Yet from what I understand the issue is where to draw the line. I have many neighbors who have pets (dogs, cats, birds, etc.) who are on government assistance. Pets do not provide sustenance but are drains economically speaking. Chances are they don't have the room to buy a calf, goat, or chickens. Not to mention many leases strictly forbid pets or limit the number of animals allowed on a property.

The issue is that often (and I'm only speaking from my experience) people with a lower income (and I'm not saying everyone) do not know how to manage money. This is due often to the fact they weren't taught by their parents how to manage money, are constantly living from paycheck to paycheck (not giving up certain things in order to have savings), and they rely on someone else to pay their bills (in the case of this OP tax payers). I find it interesting that my neighbors who are always in a bind smoke a pack (or two) a day of cigarettes, have enough money to buy alcohol, have {expensive} cell phone family plans, and often have cable/satellite TV. All the while not having enough to save $5-20 a month...

That said my heart breaks for those who've lost jobs or face disabilities that impede them from providing for themselves or their families. It seems to me that if one could work one would try to. Given the economy I'm sure that this can be a challenge but being out of work (assuming one isn't disabled) should be viewed as a full-time occupation to find work instead of what I've heard some people say "I have x amount of weeks before my unemployment checks run out... I'll start looking for work in x amount of weeks."

Just my 2 cents...

[GoldenEagle]

I made it quite plain that I was not condemning anyone. That this is what I would have to do, as I see the food stamp programs rules and how I would have to live out my walk with the Lord under it.

Hello AyinJade,

I agree with your stance in this matter and voted as such.

I also see merit in the other arguments.

I would have to agree with AJ and Ninhao. I would try to follow the rules to the best of my ability to honor God.

I do as well see merit in others points and arguments.

God bless,

GE

[other one]

Not to hijack the thread but I thought you all might want to know...... our Governor signed a law yesterday that basically states that to get food stamps in Oklahoma you have to work at least 20 hours a month unless you are handicapped or elderly. if you can't find a job, it appears they will find something for you to do if you want to eat on our dime. i don't know if they changed the numbers, but if you make over 1,200 a month you can't get them anyway.

it'll be interesting to see how this works out.

[The_Patriot21]

I did read your posts. I see nothing wrong with discussing the "bits and pieces". I was just curious why you felt that way. From what I see in your posts, the thorn in your side is the money. You want to restrict what others have because you can't have it. (steaks and lobster) I was just wondering why? I mean really, who cares what other people are eating?

Did you know that there are military families on foodstamps? Active, retired and disabled.

First off, if you had read my posts, you will see I already answered the questions you posed, so clearly, you did not, or did not understand the answer

I was just giving you an opportunity to explain in the event you misspoke. But apparently you didn't so I'll go with it.

You mentioned the waste of tax dollars and how they could be better spent elsewhere. Did you know your tax dollars pay for abortions?

You think people on government assistance should be restricted from what they can purchase because if "you" can't afford it, they shouldn't be able to have it either. The Lord tells us not to covet.

You attempt to make a distinction between the common everyday foodstamp user and those in the military. There isn't one. Poor is poor. Showing partiality is something else the Lord tells us not to do.

You commented on the intelligence of those who use foodstamps by saying they sould be taught how to use coupons. I don't even know what to say to that.

You want those on government assistance to have to work for their handouts. As if being poor isn't humiliating enough. If jobs were that easy to come by, the unemployment rate wouldn't be as high as it is. Did you know that many who are on foodstamps actually do have jobs and you want to add more burdens to their lives?

I don't understand the mentality of looking down on those less fortunate.

First off, I realize my tax dollars are used for abortions, and Im 100% against that-but that is a completly seperate issue, and I don't see how that applies here, we are talking about food stamps not abortions. So please, stop jumping off topic.

Second off, it has nothing to do with "coveting" what they have. at all. So please, don't put words in my mouth, and do read the entirety of my posts. It has to do with the fact, that food stamps are there to give the poor the essentials-and to use them for anything besides the essentials, like expensive food, is a waste of tax payer money, and all it does is encourage the entitlement mentality, it doesnt teach them to live off of a budget.

I realize, that there is no distinction, between food stamps to the military, and those who arnt. Im saying there should be. People in the military are vastly underpaid, and do work thats worth far more then what they actually get paid. Its not saying that theyre better, but I do think that they should get more benefits, because theyre obviously not abusing the system, and they should get extra benefits for the job they do.

I wasnt questioning peoples intelligence-I was saying they dont know how. If you had actually read my reply, you would see that I was saying that they don't know how-thats not saying their stupid, low on IQ, or anything else. Not everyone can drive a semi, that doesnt mean those who cant are inferior, it just means they don't know how. If one doesn't know how, hasn't been taught something, then theyre not going to know how to do it. People need to be trained on how to use their money wisely, live off a budget, make use of sales, etc.

As far as working for them, yes I do. I Realize, that there are some who do have jobs and have them, and those, obviously, should be exempt, but those who don't have jobs, and are not disabled in any way that prevents them from working, yes should have to work for them. If theyre not working for them, all it does is encourage that entitlement mentality-you get this, for free. Well, its not free, someone paid for it somewhere, least we can do is get some clean roads out of the deal.

Finally, I don't look down on anyone less fortunate, not at all, I just think that a lot of these people, are abusing the system-and not because of any intentional wrong doing on their part-but because theyre being raised in a entitlement society, and the problem is, with the entitlement society line of thought, is that its slavery-these people don't know how to improve their situations, and instead of helping them we just hand them free handouts, well after a generation or two of free handouts, what are they going to do? theyre obviously only going to vote for whoever keeps giving them their handouts-and not whos best for the country, and they will always be poor.

Now, Im going to be frank. Im tired of your attitude, you don't read my replies thoroughly, or at the very least don't understand them, and instead of just say he I Disagree with you here, or I don't understand your point, you come back by belittling and attacking me. That is not only childish, but un-Christlike. If you can't debate, without doing these things, then don't bother replying to me again-because I won't be replying to you unless you can reply respectfully, and stop putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

And ladyC I saw that. It doesnt change my point. Food stamps should not be permitted in any restaurant. anywhere. period. Its a if the shoe fits statement. If your state does not then thats great, but if your state is one of those four, then shame on it-shame on those four states. Just my .02 cents.