The "born again" distinction

[stevehut]

Sacraments (Baptism included) provide an objective grace that does not depend on the individual

So the person doesn't have to have faith or repent to be baptized? That would be news to me.

Otherwise, yes, I agree with your point. Since Jesus says you have to be born again to be saved, and Christians claim to be saved, then how can you be saved without being born again? A very inconsistent position, indeed.

[stevehut]

The thief on the cross was not baptized in water, yet he WAS "reborn" in the newness of the Holy Spirit.

What does this have to do with baptism? Christian baptism was not introduced until Pentecost, which was almost 2 months away from this scene.

[Guest philws]

not only is my Father's Word mocked:

God-man Posted Today, 04:03 PM

2 thieves, 2 malefactors, 4 chickens, and 10 dogs.............

it is twisted as well:

QUOTE(Dad Ernie @ Nov 10 2004, 02:57 PM)

The thief on the cross was not baptized in water, yet he WAS "reborn" in the newness of the Holy Spirit.

in light of your being unwilling to admit the truth of God's Word or offer Scriptural refutation thereof and make sick jokes on the crucifixion i leave you to your weird device.

Matt 7:5-6

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

(KJV)

[Khristeeanos]

doobie-doobie-do!

not exactly edifying .... your humor eludes me.

shoobie do wahhhhhhh !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't an attempt at humor, it was me trying to stay out of the debate. Debating is not edifying.

People too often don't really want to know the fullness of God's truth - they just want to continue to believe what they hear other people say.

[ted]

What a complete waste of bandwidth this thread turned out to be.

First, we are baited by a post and run. Then, a few insults are tossed around, and finally, the original issue is lost in pithy comments.

Any real reason for this one to stay open?

t.

[mobile21]

Welcome back mobile!

Hi! & thanx.

"Born again" is just the Anglican modernized version of the phrase "born anew," which is another way of saying, "new birth."  Being born of the Spirit is a kind of new birth.  It is also described as regeneration in the Bible.  Once a believer receives Christ he is regenerated or born anew.  I personally do not believe in baptismal regeneration, and I do not believe that the Bible ever differentiates between believers who have been baptized and ones who have not.  I have not found any verse in the Bilble that explicitly states that a regenerated believer who has not been baptized, "goes to hell."  Furthermore, I have not found any restriction upon a believer in the number of times, or the manner in which he or she is baptized.  So I tend not to worry about it too much.

That's it for me in a nutshell.  I'll bow out here, except for brief answers, as I do not want to get stuck in the quagmire of another baptismal salvation discussion.

So basically you believe that the Sacrament of Baptism carries no particular grace with it?.

If that's so, then why you think Jesus emphasizes Baptism and gives to it the same importance as to preaching the Gospel (Mt. 28, 19)?.

[mobile21]

Greetings,

The thief on the cross was not baptized in water, yet he WAS "reborn" in the newness of the Holy Spirit.

Hi Ernie:

The thief was indeed baptized. There are 3 types of Baptism:

1) Baptism of water

2) Baptism of fire

3) Baptism of desire

The thief received the Baptism of desire. The grace is the very same in the 3 of them.

I shy away from those who insist that any of the sacraments are a necessary part of salvation.

Then again, this puts you at odds with Scripture since the Bible talks so much about those Sacraments...........!.

But for those, who like myself, participate in them, it is because we do those things in rememberance of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This sounds like "optional" and I don't think the truth is optional............... if you know something to be true, then you have to live according to that truth and not saying "it's all optional".

I think this idea of "optional" is yet another consequence of the "fear of commitment" thing of modern culture.

Ppl don't seem to want to be christians unless the only thing they have to do is to declare one time & one time only Jesus as their Lord & Savior. I believe the exact opposite is true: to be a christian is to have a commitment that lasts a lifetime.

Blessings.

[mobile21]

Dear Steve Hut:

Sacraments (Baptism included) provide an objective grace that does not depend on the individual

So the person doesn't have to have faith or repent to be baptized? That would be news to me.

Otherwise, yes, I agree with your point. Since Jesus says you have to be born again to be saved, and Christians claim to be saved, then how can you be saved without being born again? A very inconsistent position, indeed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not claim to be "saved".

You have to persevere till the very end to be saved, that's what Scripture says, so you have to keep being faithful from Baptism to death (till God grants you life here on Earth, that is).

This is why I say the "born again" doctrine makes no sense whatsoever; it's a doctrine that has no practical consequences because no matter how you put it, you have to persevere till the end.

Why to believe in a doctrine that is good for nothing? This is my point.

Blessings.

[mobile21]

What a complete waste of bandwidth this thread turned out to be.

First, we are baited by a post and run. Then, a few insults are tossed around, and finally, the original issue is lost in pithy comments.

Any real reason for this one to stay open?

t.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, there is a reason...............

The reason is that too many ppl have been deceived by this false doctrine. Too many ppl believe in some "label" of "being born again" and think that no matter what they do, they'll be saved because of the "born again ritual".

I think that's a pretty good reason.

Blessings.

[His son]

John 3:3-5

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(KJV)

1 Pet 1:23-25

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

(KJV)

This should take care of any inquiries about being born again. Can't figure out why there should be a controversy about this?