Have the seal judgements begun? by Jack Kelly

[Little One]

Little One:

The question asked...not to you, but if you want to cover it, that's fine, was:

2. If someone has wealth, does that mean they are not saved or that they need to suffer because they are wealthy?

Near as I can make out, this is your response:

Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

The desire for wealth and the desire for God are contradictory and compete for our loyalty. As long as we have enough money in this world, we "feel" secure. But let our finances become shakey and we "feel" scared. See how easily money takes the place of God in our minds and hearts as the source of all we have? See how our ability to earn and have money provides us with a false sense of security that God alone provides?

It appears you have misunderstood the question. I was not bringing up the love of money. However, it has been my observation that those who do not have money are quick to state that they don't want it.

I am not saying you have no money, I am saying that I don't think you understood the application of my question or, you just wanted the opportunity to quote those verses.

I find your definition to be adding somewhat, to grace and simple faith. Jesus spoke those words to someone still under law. We are not under law.

For your information, I am not accumulating sums of wealth...just payin the bills, no doubt, as you are.

I don't know why you appeared to have thought you needed to take this to the nth degree

You have taken my post way off course...this may be your own personal hobby horse, but it is not mine. There is nothing wrong with money...the problem is actually a lack of love

as per I Cor 13....seems it does not matter if you even die, if you don't love, God does not care...in Corinthians we learn that even if you give it all away and are a superior Christian

in every way that those who judge such things take note, if you don't love, it means.....n o t h i n g

This seems to be one of those threads in which much ado about nothing goes on for several pages until finally it gets shut down because it becomes personal.

I have hardly been the only one to mention money in this post. Have you not read the remarks others have made in response that have kept it going in this direction as well? I quoted many scriptures referring to the love of money and showing how the desire for wealth leads people astray. It's a very slippery slope. That's why Jesus said in no uncertain terms that the love of God and the love of money cannot co-exist in the same heart. Just watch what comes down the line in the future. All Christians will be forced to choose one or the other -- God OR money. Money is what the mark of the beast is all about. People will not be able to buy or sell without it, and buying and selling takes some form of money. I think you'll see many so-called Christians taking the mark to save themselves from suffering -- despite the fact that they've been told ahead of time that to take it numbers them among the Godless.

[Little One]

Brother, those are your words, not mine.

That will not work, and people who post something and then pretend like they never said it, or attempt to place the blame for having said in on someone else have a very short shelf life here.

If you are preaching a social doctrine, that all wealth is bad and that everyone should give away all that they have, or they are not a Christian, you are are not my "brother." Because that false doctrine is not found within the pages of the Bible. You didn't get it from the Bible and propagating such a teaching is spreading false doctrine. If you are going to claim things, at least have the integrity and internal consistency to stand by them after you have said them.

You quoted me in your other post, then said I wrote something that anyone who read my post could see I did not say. You flat-out lied in print. Therefore you are correct -- I am NOT your brother!

[~candice~]

Little one, as a Servant on this website I must step in now. It is clear you have accused Cobalt of being a lover of money. Can you please furnish proof of that statement, or, retract it and apologise. We do not allow such unfounded allegations here.

[firestormx]

This thread has really gotten off topic huh, lol. Well, while revelation does talk about the wealthly mourning over the city that made them so rich, and jesus did say it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven. It also talks about many of the saints of God having been given great wealth by God as a blessing. It says things like the wealth of the wicked being laid up for the just. I think that a proper doctrine of scripture, from begining to end is that while wealth can led to seperation from God, that God can use it and the wealth of the wicked to bless his children. That it is about the heart of the person, and weather they keep christ first, keep Christ as there source. That it's Christ they lean on, and depend on for all things, and not the wealth.

Part of what disturbs me about the wealth conversation, is that in revelation, when explaining all the things the wealthy traded in babylon before it's distruction is the souls and lives of men. I believe it's during the bowel judgements. I believe we the church are with christ during this point, during the point of the distruction of babylon, but my question has always been, it says clearly that men and there lives and souls were traded like cattle in the last days. This sounds like slavery to me. So if it ends in the bowel judgements, when does this slavery foretold in revelation, that will happen in the end times, When does it begin?

The verse I'm talking about are below for referance.

Revelation 18:11-13 (NIV)

¹¹ “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— ¹² cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; ¹³ cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves.

[Sevenseas]

Little One:

I have hardly been the only one to mention money in this post. Have you not read the remarks others have made in response that have kept it going in this direction as well? I quoted many scriptures referring to the love of money and showing how the desire for wealth leads people astray. It's a very slippery slope. That's why Jesus said in no uncertain terms that the love of God and the love of money cannot co-exist in the same heart. Just watch what comes down the line in the future. All Christians will be forced to choose one or the other -- God OR money. Money is what the mark of the beast is all about. People will not be able to buy or sell without it, and buying and selling takes some form of money. I think you'll see many so-called Christians taking the mark to save themselves from suffering -- despite the fact that they've been told ahead of time that to take it numbers them among the Godless.

Hmmm...again, money or discussing money or anything about money was not the reason I remarked on your post to ME.

YOU decided to go that route.

Okay? I'm okay...hope you understand now. I'm not discussing money. YOU are the one that went in that direction. My original post was in response to someone else and you

took one sentence from that post and made a case for not loving money.

I don't love money...I was not writing about money...I was responding to the fact someone thought they were all ready for heaven.

I plan to leave my money behind. As I already stated, scripture makes it clear that even if you martyr yourself and yet do not have love, your sacrifice means nothing.

Doesn't that kind of make a person think twice before they point fingers at others? I would think so.

I think you'll see many so-called Christians taking the mark to save themselves from suffering -- despite the fact that they've been told ahead of time that to take it numbers them among the Godless.

Wow. You know, you are kind of intimating that you are better than alot of other people. That, is how your post comes across. If you do not mean to sound that way, perhaps you

might consider the way you come across. Sometimes we sound angrier than we really are. I hope you are not really thinking along those lines, but rather thinking about and praying

about what you can do to help things and not just point out the wrong in everyone.

[Little One]

The scenario described in the parable Lazarus and the Rich Man exists for the first time in recorded history on a global level today.

Have not the wealth-hoarding "Power Elite" declared the world to be a Global Community? Yet in doing so thay have cast themselves in the collective role of the Rich Man and the world's poorest collectively as Lazarus, who sits at their gate, waiting their attention. They cast themselves in this role the moment they declared the world a single community, with themselves as the most prosperous within it.

Hmm. . . I smell social doctrine. The End Times have nothing to do with wealth or the lack of it. Great wealth in the face of extreme poverty has always existed within the world. It is not something new. The earth has never been a place of a level playing field when it comes to material possessions. The End Times are marked, as were the days of Noah by the world being over-run by wickedness. Wealth or lack of it has nothing to do with anything. Wealth, in and of itself, is not an indicator of wickedness.

RE: "Hmm. . . I smell social doctrine."

I hear someone who loves money and wants to justify holding on to it.

Matthew 6:24

"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

RE: "The End Times have nothing to do with wealth or the lack of it."

So should we believe you or God's Word, Colbalt?

James 5:1-6 (NIV)

Warning to Rich Oppressors

Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

RE: "Wealth or lack of it has nothing to do with anything. Wealth, in and of itself, is not an indicator of wickedness."

Revelation 18:1-3 (NIV)

Lament Over Fallen Babylon

After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. With a mighty voice he shouted:

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’

She has become a dwelling for demons

and a haunt for every impure spirit,

a haunt for every unclean bird,

a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.

For all the nations have drunk

the maddening wine of her adulteries.

The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,

and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

Who historically hoards wealth and why, Cobalt?

Is it the faithful or the fearful? Those who care for others as they care for themselves, or those who care more for themselves?

Disciples of Christ Jesus are to be doing as He did. When did Jesus hoard wealth and advise His disciples to do likewise? Yet if anyone would have been entitled to have much in this world, would it not have been the Lord Himself? Yet He set us a very different example:

Luke 12:13-21

The Parable of the Rich Fool

Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”

Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’

“Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’

“But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’

“This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”

The scenario described in the parable Lazarus and the Rich Man exists for the first time in recorded history on a global level today.

Have not the wealth-hoarding "Power Elite" declared the world to be a Global Community? Yet in doing so thay have cast themselves in the collective role of the Rich Man and the world's poorest collectively as Lazarus, who sits at their gate, waiting their attention. They cast themselves in this role the moment they declared the world a single community, with themselves as the most prosperous within it.

Hmm. . . I smell social doctrine. The End Times have nothing to do with wealth or the lack of it. Great wealth in the face of extreme poverty has always existed within the world. It is not something new. The earth has never been a place of a level playing field when it comes to material possessions. The End Times are marked, as were the days of Noah by the world being over-run by wickedness. Wealth or lack of it has nothing to do with anything. Wealth, in and of itself, is not an indicator of wickedness.

Little one, as a Servant on this website I must step in now. It is clear you have accused Cobalt of being a lover of money. Can you please furnish proof of that statement, or, retract it and apologise. We do not allow such unfounded allegations here.

Let Cobalt produce "proof" of what he said he smells in what I posted. Rarely is one so defensive about something they do not love.

[Little One]

You quoted me in your other post, then said I wrote something that anyone who read my post could see I did not say. You flat-out lied in print. Therefore you are correct -- I am NOT your brother!

These are your words, unaltered, from post #4 of this thread:

Those who think they will be raptured from a world in which they have lived in the lap of luxurious American lifestyles -- as contrasted with the meager lifestyles of their third-world brothers and sisters -- had better reassess what the Lord's priorities are and make sure they are in line with them. Otherwise, what they forsee as a "rapture" could manifest as a "rejection":

When I brought up your statement, you avoided explaining it like the plague. And you still have not dealt with it. You made the statement, not I. An honest, humble, and forthright Christian explains something like this when asked about it. They do not avoid the question. They do not dance around the question. They do not accuse the asker of hoarding wealth or being a lover of money. They explain what they meant without tossing out baseless accusations.

The fact is, the majority of Americas do not live luxurious lifestyles. And while you single out America, every single country one could name has people in it who live in poverty and others who have great wealth. That is the way the world has always been. No country exists in which every resident lives exactly the same lifestyle and has the exact same amount of money and possessions as everyone else.

Sir, my statement was about those who enjoy luxurious lifestyles and the fact is, many more Americans have and still do take for granted everyday what those living in third world nations consider luxuries. In general, we Americans are spoiled compared to people living in other countries. My statement also specifically referred to the Power Elite who have declared this world a Global Community. If the shoe does not fit you personally, Cobalt, then why are you putting it on as though it does?

Many popular Christian ministers today miss the true point of Christ's Gospel and the "treasure" it speaks to and preach instead a gospel promising worldly gain -- which is enmity toward God and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 6

...constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

⁶ But godliness with contentment is great gain. ⁷ For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. ⁸ But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. ⁹ Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. ¹⁰ For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

This statement is as true today as it was in Paul's day. But if you are not among those who enjoy the things most Americans take for granted daily -- computers with Internet and games, cell phones, Food Stamps for the poor and plentiful food selections at indoor markets without flies, air conditioning, satellite TV, movies at your fingertips, indoor plumbing, football and NASCAR races, having pets you can afford to feed and care for rather than eat, a personal motor vehicle, etc. -- then why take what I said so personally?

I truly am sorry if you took offense to what I said, but my question is why did you if you are not among those I was referring to?

[OneLight]

This thread is closed to clean up the attacks.

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