Eternal Security And The Bondservant

[David1701]

On 5/8/2013 at 2:32 PM, Mcgyver said:

Well, I hope that I'm putting this in the correct forum for discussion...

 

It seems to me that whenever the debate over Eternal vs. Conditional Security of the believer comes up, that many approach the issue from either a Calvinistic or Arminian viewpoint...and I personally don't think that either view is totally correct.

 

So then, I'd like to submit a different viewpoint for discussion and evaluation...based on the OT law of the bondservant (or bondslave as it is sometimes translated); as I have found that the OT foreshadows the NT and the NT illuminates the OT.

 

The law of the bondservant is found in two places in the OT: Exodus and Deuteronomy, and reads as follows:

 

“Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them: If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. Exodus 21:1-6 (Emphasis mine)

 

And if it happens that he says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’ because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you, then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise. Deut 15:16-17 (Emphasis mine)

 

Obviously, when one became a Bondservant it was for life. Even if later on down the line he/she decided that they perhaps wanted to be free...it couldn't happen. Also there is no provision anywhere for the selling of a bondservant. Twice it is said that the bondservant would serve his/her master forever, and this implies a two-way obligation.

 

Now I think that we can agree that man has a free will to make moral choices, and that God desires that none perish but that all come to repentance.

 

This then is what I submit for consideration:

 

When one responds to the Gospel, and is truly born-again, then one has in essence taken the role of the bondservant. That is to say that having our "ear pierced with the awl" as it were, we can not later "give up" or "walk away from" the salvation that has been given us, nor will God "sell" us back into Satan's clutches.

 

The scripture (I think) supports this view in quite a few passages, a couple of which follow:

 

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (Emphasis mine)

 

Here for example, ownership by God over the believer is firmly established. 1 Corinthians 7:22-24 echos this sentiment.

 

Philippians 1:6 tells us: being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ... Obviously if salvation can somehow be "lost" then how can Christ complete His good work in us?

 

Again: In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14 (Emphasis mine)

 

It is interesting to me that the Apostles refer to themselves as doulos (pl. douloi) variously translated as: servant, bondservant, or slave. What is striking is that of the five Greek words for "slave" or "servant", doulos is the most abject form of slavery.

 

Dr. Richard Trench in his Synonyms of the New Testament (9th ed.) defines "doulos" thusly: "One that is in a permanent relation of servitude to another, his will altogether swallowed up in the will of the other..."

 

So then, to recap briefly...We respond to the Gospel at the leading of the Holy Spirit by an act of will on our part (for as "free agents" we can either accept or reject the offer of salvation), and having responded we enter into a permanent and positional relationship with God through His Son; and that relationship can not be broken by either party.

 

What sayest thou?

Parts of this are good; however...

Quote

Now I think that we can agree that man has a free will to make moral choices, and that God desires that none perish but that all come to repentance.

1) Are you referring to Libertarian Free Will, or Compatibilistic Free Will?  It makes a considerable difference.

2) You are alluding to 2 Pet. 3:9, but the context is vital.

2 Pet. 3:8,9 (VW)

8 But, beloved, do not be unaware of this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

God is long-suffering towards his beloved elect (most of whom were not even born yet, when Peter wrote his letter), not having purposed any of us to perish but all of us to come to repentance, which is exactly what happens!  This is confirmed, later in the passage.

2 Pet. 3:15 (VW) and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

[Don19]

37 minutes ago, Alive said:

Amen brother---it is interesting and I think relevant to invoke 'slave' as a tool to show our 'eternal' relationship with Christ, but there are greater reasons given to us, to make sure this point.

As you say---the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension and how our Lord Himself pointed to that 'event' to come, which would 'seal' us as His own.

Praise the Lord! When the Father placed each of us 'in Christ' and included us in those events. There are verses in scripture that folks can wrangle over, but the inclusion 'In Christ' is such plain language as to shine a light that can't be resisted.

When the Lord saved me, He has to show me this specifically. My former religious background was Roman Catholicism, and so my mind was trained in thinking that a "state of grace" can be lost due to "mortal sins" and suchlike.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 6/26/2020 at 9:26 AM, Don19 said:

When the Lord saved me, He has to show me this specifically. My former religious background was Roman Catholicism, and so my mind was trained in thinking that a "state of grace" can be lost due to "mortal sins" and 

 

 

Why don't you look what you believed as a RC...

You celebrated Christmas...you celebrated the virgin birth of Jesus...that he was not from man...

That he was the promised one to come...

You celebrated Jesus as the seed of the woman... you celebrated his earthly ministry...the ministry of John the Baptist.

The forerunner who identify Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world...

You celebrated the last supper...you heard over and over the words of Jesus Christ "this is the blood of the new Covenant that will be shed for the forgiveness of the sins...

Every year you celebrated the good Friday and the resurrection Sunday...

How can you say that you were not in Christ...

Ok what ever and how ever you perceived things...or the church teachings...

Is it not Jesus Christ who is the Judge above all...

You looked how the church teach...but why you are not looking to Jesus Christ who as the time when you were under the Catholic doctrine you were born from above...your faith in Jesus Christ matters above all...

You were in Jesus Christ...and that what you have believed and that's what the church teaches...

if not why would they say that you may be expelled from being in Christ because of your sins and your absence of repentance...to

To say that the admit that you must first be in Christ...and then be expelled...

They do not say that you are expelled from Christ...as if Jesus Christ expelled you from him to Hell....

They say that you will find your self in a place of the purgatory among the sinners and with time and petitions you will eventually find yourself in the presence of God...

The point we look into is that none of the Catholics is lost...to Hell...perhaps only those ..the former Catholics the church has excommunicated...perhaps not even them...because they admit that they excommunicate believers in Jesus Christ...like Luther and other "apostates"...

We must learn to distinguish who is born from above and who is not..

according to anyone's confession of faith in Jesus Christ..

You were in Christ as a Catholic because of your faith in Jesus Christ...and Jesus Christ accepted your faith in him....you were borned from above...

Even in the example of the bond Servant...he belongs to his Lord whether he is a good or disobedient servant...bond slave...

That does not change he is a bond servant not matter what...he does it pleases his Owner or not....

He became his bond slave at his doorstep and not on someone else's...

They ender in to a Covenant...

Is their anything that say that the Lord of the bond servant can break his Covenant with the bond servant? 

 

[Don19]

2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

Why don't you look what you believed as a RC...

You celebrated Christmas...you celebrated the virgin birth of Jesus...that he was not from man...

That he was the promised one to come...

You celebrated Jesus as the seed of the woman... you celebrated his earthly ministry...the ministry of John the Baptist.

The forerunner who identify Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world...

You celebrated the last supper...you heard over and over the words of Jesus Christ "this is the blood of the new Covenant that will be shed for the forgiveness of the sins...

Every year you celebrated the good Friday and the resurrection Sunday...

How can you say that you were not in Christ...

Ok what ever and how ever you perceived things...or the church teachings...

Is it not Jesus Christ who is the Judge above all...

You looked how the church teach...but why you are not looking to Jesus Christ who as the time when you were under the Catholic doctrine you were born from above...your faith in Jesus Christ matters above all...

You were in Jesus Christ...and that what you have believed and that's what the church teaches...

if not why would they say that you may be expelled from being in Christ because of your sins and your absence of repentance...to

To say that the admit that you must first be in Christ...and then be expelled...

They do not say that you are expelled from Christ...as if Jesus Christ expelled you from him to Hell....

They say that you will find your self in a place of the purgatory among the sinners and with time and petitions you will eventually find yourself in the presence of God...

The point we look into is that none of the Catholics is lost...to Hell...perhaps only those ..the former Catholics the church has excommunicated...perhaps not even them...because they admit that they excommunicate believers in Jesus Christ...like Luther and other "apostates"...

We must learn to distinguish who is born from above and who is not..

according to anyone's confession of faith in Jesus Christ..

You were in Christ as a Catholic because of your faith in Jesus Christ...and Jesus Christ accepted your faith in him....you were borned from above...

Even in the example of the bond Servant...he belongs to his Lord whether he is a good or disobedient servant...bond slave...

That does not change he is a bond servant not matter what...he does it pleases his Owner or not....

He became his bond slave at his doorstep and not on someone else's...

They ender in to a Covenant...

Is their anything that say that the Lord of the bond servant can break his Covenant with the bond servant? 

 

I don’t believe Roman Catholics are saved (at least, not if they believe what their church teaches). Not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven. I do frankly believe the pope is the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2, and Paul says here that his followers have not believed the truth, are deceived, and will be dammed. 1 Timothy 4:1-3 also clearly speaks of Catholicism in my opinion, seeing that forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats is characteristic of Catholicism.
 

Catholicism is “another gospel” which sets forth “another Jesus.” Faith in “another Jesus” will not save you. The leaven of works in salvation leaveneth the whole lump. 
 

Regardless, I was not Catholic any longer when the Lord saved me. I had been an atheist for 14 years, since December 2004 when I was 14 years old. I thought I was a Christian, but I was not. I never believed, in a salvific sense. I was saved when I was 28, in January 2019.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Don19

[Your closest friendnt]

8 hours ago, Don19 said:

I don’t believe Roman Catholics are saved (at least, not if they believe what their church teaches). Not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven. I do frankly believe the pope is the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2, and Paul says here that his followers have not believed the truth, are deceived, and will be dammed. 1 Timothy 4:1-3 also clearly speaks of Catholicism in my opinion, seeing that forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats is characteristic of Catholicism.
 

Catholicism is “another gospel” which sets forth “another Jesus.” Faith in “another Jesus” will not save you. The leaven of works in salvation leaveneth the whole lump. 
 

Regardless, I was not Catholic any longer when the Lord saved me. I had been an atheist for 14 years, since December 2004 when I was 14 years old. I thought I was a Christian, but I was not. I never believed, in a salvific sense. I was saved when I was 28, in January 2019.

"The truth shall set you free"...this saying is for believers as much as unbelievers...

Jesus knows about the  diferent twist of the Gospel....

The truth is that he knows who have believe in him ....THAT HE DIED FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS....and nothing can take from him anyone who believes that he die for his sins...but when a believer lives he is under the adaptation of the different denominations as long as he lives...

When he dies Jesus takes him/her and the denominations cease to exist for someone who have died...Jesus takes him from the denominations and he is free indeed from their nets...he is free unto  Christ Jesus....from that moment on only Jesus can teach him...

The believer at death gains Jesus Christ on the expense of the denomination...

 

[Don19]

7 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

"The truth shall set you free"...this saying is for believers as much as unbelievers...

Jesus knows about the  diferent twist of the Gospel....

The truth is that he knows who have believe in him ....THAT HE DIED FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS....and nothing can take from him anyone who believes that he die for his sins...but when a believer lives he is under the adaptation of the different denominations as long as he lives...

When he dies Jesus takes him/her and the denominations cease to exist for someone who have died...Jesus takes him from the denominations and he is free indeed from their nets...he is free unto  Christ Jesus....from that moment on only Jesus can teach him...

The believer at death gains Jesus Christ on the expense of the denomination...

 

Different twist of the gospel?

The Judaizers had a "different twist" on the gospel, requiring circumcision to be saved, just as Roman Catholics require sacraments and avoidance of "mortal sins" for final salvation. What does Paul say?

 

Galatians 1:6-9:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4:

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

Let me be frank: you can believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of your sins. Sure, Romans Catholics believe that. The Judaizers did, too. But, if you also believe you must still do "your part," you do not believe the truth; a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump (Gal 5:9). Because Jesus Christ is the truth (John 14:6), and His word is truth. Paul says, these followers of the man of sin have not received the love of the truth, that they might be saved (2 Thess 2:10). Those who believe in "another Jesus" have not received the love of the truth. Because the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation, which results in the sealing of the Spirit for all who believe, is the "word of truth" (Eph 1:13, Jas 1:18). The Spirit is the Spirit of truth (John 14:17, 16:13) - and the truth is freedom in Christ (John 8:32; Gal 4:7, 5:1), the kind of freedom that can only come from eternal security in Christ.

The truth is:

John 5:24:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

"Hath everlasting life" = has it presently. Not "will have it" in the future, if they continue to fulfill conditions in this life.

John 4:13-14:

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Drink of the living water. Jesus says you shall never thirst. Roman Catholics say you have to keep drinking it, but Jesus says it shall be in you a well of water springing up into everlasting life! Hallelujah!

[Your closest friendnt]

13 hours ago, Don19 said:

Different twist of the gospel?

The Judaizers had a "different twist" on the gospel, requiring circumcision to be saved, just as Roman Catholics require sacraments and avoidance of "mortal sins" for final salvation. What does Paul say?

 

Galatians 1:6-9:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4:

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

Let me be frank: you can believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of your sins. Sure, Romans Catholics believe that. The Judaizers did, too. But, if you also believe you must still do "your part," you do not believe the truth; a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump (Gal 5:9). Because Jesus Christ is the truth (John 14:6), and His word is truth. Paul says, these followers of the man of sin have not received the love of the truth, that they might be saved (2 Thess 2:10). Those who believe in "another Jesus" have not received the love of the truth. Because the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation, which results in the sealing of the Spirit for all who believe, is the "word of truth" (Eph 1:13, Jas 1:18). The Spirit is the Spirit of truth (John 14:17, 16:13) - and the truth is freedom in Christ (John 8:32; Gal 4:7, 5:1), the kind of freedom that can only come from eternal security in Christ.

The truth is:

John 5:24:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

"Hath everlasting life" = has it presently. Not "will have it" in the future, if they continue to fulfill conditions in this life.

John 4:13-14:

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Drink of the living water. Jesus says you shall never thirst. Roman Catholics say you have to keep drinking it, but Jesus says it shall be in you a well of water springing up into everlasting life! Hallelujah!

You make some points which are good for discussion...

We need to distinguish between those two groups...the Galatians who were taught from the  beginning the Gospel from Paul...a former Pharisee who had lived under the rules of the Sinai Covenant and later Converted to the faith of Jesus Christ...

The Apostle Paul was preaching the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles...

He preached that both groups are in their sins and both need Jesus Christ to have forgiveness of their sins....

He preached that the Patriarchy of Abraham has been completed...that Abraham is in Christ that Abraham also needed to believe in Jesus Christ that he too found himself in the need to believe that Jesus is the Christ and he also died for the forgiveness of his sins...