Born of Water and Spirit by Jack Kelly

[Guest man]

It is the predominant impression one (me) gets when the baptists (once again I mean this in the generic term of all who insist on full immersion baptism rather than sprinkling, pouring of water etc ). On this site as on others it is as if other denominations who are not immersed are second rate and only the baptists who are worthy of the rapture and eternity. Perhaps you are unaware of how it appears to one from another denomination that does not believe in the necessity of immersion. Yes I was 'Christened as an infant but have accepted Jesus as my Saviour and have the Holy Spirit indwelling me - is that not sufficient to your theology?

I don't believe one is more important than the other - they are rites/ sacraments and all are equal but when it is insisted by the baptists that full immersion and only that is necessary that is when I object.

PS I have friends who are baptists and one is looked down on or less a christian if one is not fully immersed and I am beginning to point out it is not necessary it is the natural birth process that makes man and only man able to be forgiven for sin, accept Jesus as Saviour and be filled with the Holy Spirit. That is why the angels of heaven stand in awe at the length Jesus went to, to save humans (born of woman) because that is something special to us alone - no spirit or animal or any part of nature can claim this depth of love Jesus has for us and reap the reward of that choice.

Are you saying that natural birth takes the place of immersion baptism?

[CAP73]

Anytime I get into a discussion about baptisms, I know Jesus told one of the thieves on the cross that today he would be with Me in paradise. That thief wasn't baptized. I've heard people claim that he was baptized after he was dead, if that were the case, I would think God would find that important enough to be mentioned in the Bible if that was one of the conditions of salvation.

[GoldenEagle]

Anytime I get into a discussion about baptisms, I know Jesus told one of the thieves on the cross that today he would be with Me in paradise. That thief wasn't baptized. I've heard people claim that he was baptized after he was dead, if that were the case, I would think God would find that important enough to be mentioned in the Bible if that was one of the conditions of salvation.

Good point.

[Littlelambseativy]

It is the predominant impression one (me) gets when the baptists (once again I mean this in the generic term of all who insist on full immersion baptism rather than sprinkling, pouring of water etc ). On this site as on others it is as if other denominations who are not immersed are second rate and only the baptists who are worthy of the rapture and eternity. Perhaps you are unaware of how it appears to one from another denomination that does not believe in the necessity of immersion. Yes I was 'Christened as an infant but have accepted Jesus as my Saviour and have the Holy Spirit indwelling me - is that not sufficient to your theology?

I don't believe one is more important than the other - they are rites/ sacraments and all are equal but when it is insisted by the baptists that full immersion and only that is necessary that is when I object.

PS I have friends who are baptists and one is looked down on or less a christian if one is not fully immersed and I am beginning to point out it is not necessary it is the natural birth process that makes man and only man able to be forgiven for sin, accept Jesus as Saviour and be filled with the Holy Spirit. That is why the angels of heaven stand in awe at the length Jesus went to, to save humans (born of woman) because that is something special to us alone - no spirit or animal or any part of nature can claim this depth of love Jesus has for us and reap the reward of that choice.

Are you saying that natural birth takes the place of immersion baptism?

1 am saying that it is a sacrament like Christening or dedication or infant baptism. Is it necessary -no- but the acceptance of Jesus sacrifice for our sin and the infilling of the Holy Spirit now that we are not under the law is all sufficient. Water immersion is a sacrament - am I not correct? Just the same as a wedding, communion or infant baptism ?

[Guest man]

Strict adherence other than to the water breaking at birth leaves anyone who does not believe in immersion baptism out or heaven and without the Holy Spirit as I understand your response. That is not correct. There are many who do not adhere to that teaching or are unavailable to be baptized after they accept Jesus as Saviour. That leaves only Baptists (in the general term) as going to heaven. Many Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Orthodox, Presbyterians and Jews etc out of heaven. I cannot in any stretch of my imagination believe you to be correct. In any land if one accepts Jesus and they are far from water to be immersed how are they baptized before the Holy Spirit indwells them on accepting Jesus as Saviour? This is not a premise I can accept. I do not believe immersion is necessary for the Salvation of the Soul or entry into heaven or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Who exactly are you addressing here?

[GoldenEagle]

Re: Infant Baptism, Sprkinkling, Pouring: Did you see this post and in particular the questions in red?

Many Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Orthodox, Presbyterians and Jews

Keep in mind I have many friends in the denominations you mentioned… A couple in fact just baptized their 1.5 year old. In my church this would be what amounts to a dedication where we (parents) pledge along with the local church to point the little one to Christ, raise them in godly principles, and love them to the best of our abilities. I don't agree with baptizing children but that doesn't mean I view them as lesser Christians or anything of that nature.

I guess sometimes people wonder at why baptism of infants, sprinkling, or pouring occurs... Where is there Scripture for infant baptism, sprinkling, or pouring in the Bible?

To be sure these practices are permissible but are they backed by Scripture or simply man-made tradition?

Curious as to your thoughts sister.

God bless,

GE

So... Any thoughts on this Littlelambseativy?

[Littlelambseativy]

As I have said before "Baptism" according to you is a commandment. I disagree. It is a sacrament/rite of some churches which adhere to immersion and those who believe in this are as adamant as you are and will never change. To me it is no different than infant baptism or dedication and the promise of parents to bring the child up in the faith and admonition of God.

Yes I saw your items in red. But the baptism by the apostles was it full immersion in a land that is dry and with few streams of water ? or could it have been the pouring or sprinkling/dabbing/ dripping water on the head of the convert? They had to draw water from a well was full immersion even possible?

[GoldenEagle]

As I have said before "Baptism" according to you is a commandment. I disagree. It is a sacrament/rite of some churches which adhere to immersion and those who believe in this are as adamant as you are and will never change. To me it is no different than infant baptism or dedication and the promise of parents to bring the child up in the faith and admonition of God.

I went back and re-read my posts on this thread. Where did I say that baptism is a commandment? Perhaps you're projecting your frustration with your Christian friends/acquaintances on those on the thread? I actually believe that baptism and the Lord's Supper are the two sacraments/ordinances entrusted by God to the local church.

Again, I'm simply wanting to understand your perspective here. That is what a discussion is all about right? I'm very curious how you know I will never change? God's truth is found in His Word. I'm always open to discussing the Bible and where my views don't match up with Scripture I simply adjust my views. The Holy Spirit is our guide to conform us to the mind of Christ.

I think I understand at least in part sister the idea that infant baptism and/or dedication is the promise of the parents to bring up a child in the faith.

God bless,

GE

[Guest man]

As I have said before "Baptism" according to you is a commandment. I disagree. It is a sacrament/rite of some churches which adhere to immersion and those who believe in this are as adamant as you are and will never change. To me it is no different than infant baptism or dedication and the promise of parents to bring the child up in the faith and admonition of God.

Yes I saw your items in red. But the baptism by the apostles was it full immersion in a land that is dry and with few streams of water ? or could it have been the pouring or sprinkling/dabbing/ dripping water on the head of the convert? They had to draw water from a well was full immersion even possible?

Matthew 28

¹⁸ And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

²⁰ teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

[GoldenEagle]

Yes I saw your items in red. But the baptism by the apostles was it full immersion in a land that is dry and with few streams of water ? or could it have been the pouring or sprinkling/dabbing/ dripping water on the head of the convert? They had to draw water from a well was full immersion even possible?

These are good questions. Let's dive into Scripture.

I propose A + B = C.

A. John baptized in the Jordan river. (Matthew 3:4-6; Luke 1:4-5)

B. All 4 Gospels point to John baptizing Jesus in Scripture. (Matthew 3:13, 15; Mark 1:11)

C. Logically Jesus was baptized by immersion in the Jordan river by John as the description of the event says “he {Jesus} went up/came up from/out of the water”. (Matt. 3:16, Mark 1:10)

Can we agree on this? Do you see the evidence that Jesus was baptized through immersion?

Matthew 3:4-6, 13-17

⁴ Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. ⁵ Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him ⁶ and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

¹³ Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. ¹⁴ John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” ¹⁵ But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. ¹⁶ And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; ¹⁷ and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Mark 1:4-5; 9-11

⁴ John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. ⁵ Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

¹¹ In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. ¹⁰ And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. ¹¹ And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”

Luke 3:21-22

²¹ Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, ²² and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”

John 1:26-33

²⁶ John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. ²⁷ It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”

²⁸ These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

²⁹ The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! ³⁰ This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ ³¹ I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” ³² And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. ³³ I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

God bless,

GE