For Those Who Fear They've Committed The Unpardonable Sin

[Guest Butero]

 

I happen to believe that Christ frees us from the bondage of sin. I don't believe we have to commit sin each and every day of our lives, at least not intentional sin.

And yet one sin is enough according to you, to send a person to hell. if they commit an intentional sin and die without the chance to repent of it, you claim that they go to hell. You make that claim without any biblical evidence. That is not preaching freedom. That is preaching bondage. In fact, it isn't biblical at all. It's just more home-made theology from you.,

 

Yes I am preaching freedom.  I am saying that Jesus has set us free, and we don't have to commit wilful sins, ever.  You and Tinky are saying we are left in bondage, and are going to keep on committing wilful sins all of our life, and have to rely on God's grace to remain saved.  There is no freedom in that.  That makes you a slave to sin.  I did give you evidence, from Hebrews.  Just because you say I misinterpreted it doesn't mean I didn't give evidence.  I reject your interpretation.  I gave the correct meaning.  If you commit wilful sins after getting saved, they are not automatically under the blood covering. 

 

That is simple Shiloh. Those who are freed from sin don't continue in willful sin. If you are continuing in willful sin, God never set you free.

You are perverting the concept of Christian freedom. We are set from the bondage of sin, but the sin nature is not eradicated. We are no longer under the curse of the law because God's justice has been fully satisified. That doesn't mean that if we sin we are not set free. That is not what the Bible says.

The very reason we have grace is becasue we still commit intentional sins. It would be like having car insurance that only insures you when you don't have an accident. If you cause a fender bender and your insurance company drops you because you messed up, what good is that insurance?? If the grace of God is only for people who don't mess up and drops you the minute you sin, what good is it. Your approach is the very antithesis of the nature and purpose of grace. It is there when you intentionally sin to say "I forgive you." If the minute you sin, you are on the way to hell, then God's grace is meaningless and the death of Jesus on the cross was an empty act.

 

The reason we need grace is because of the unintentional things we do wrong.  It could be an evil thought?  It could be an outburst of anger?  Those are not pre-meditated sins, but they would defile us if not for grace.  God's grace is essential, or nobody could be saved.  BTW, insurance companies have been known to drop people if they do certain things that make them a high risk. 

 

I had a Pastor once that said he hadn't sinned since the 1950s when he got saved, but he had made mistakes. At the time, I didn't understand what he meant, but I think I do now? He meant he hadn't committed willful sins since that time, because God had broken he bondage of sin in his life.

He is only deceiving himself. I also heard a man say that he and his wife had never had an argument in 30 years of marriage. The problem was that he was abusive and she was terrified of him and so she never dared voice a disagreeing word. He painted a picture of a happy marriage, but in truth he was only deceiving himself.

 

I am not so sure?  I believe it is possible he may have avoided wilful sins that long?  He acknowledge making mistakes at times, which is what I call unintentional sins.  Who are you to say he committed wilful sins during that time period?  If you can make it one minute without a wilful sin, why not an hour?  If an hour, why not a day?  If a day, why not a week?  The idea we can't help but rebel from time to time is a lie. 

 

God can set you free where you won't continue to willfully violate God's laws. Imagine this? A married man is tempted by a beautiful woman to commit adultery. If you truly can't resist a willful sin, why find fault in him when he cheats on his wife?

There is a difference between saying that if you are saved you will not willfully violate laws and saying that because you are redeemed you don't have to willfully violate laws. Resisting temptation is a choice and sometimes we succeed and sometimes we fail. That is why we need grace. When we fail, it doesn't mean we are not saved or werent' set free. It means we are still human and are still at war with a sinful nature called "the flesh." Grace is for the genuine follower of Christ who stumbles from time to time in a sincere attempt to serve the Lord.

 

You can be at war with the sin nature, and still choose to resist temptation, every single time.  There is nothing making you give in, but your own lust.  We need grace for the times we commit unintentional sins. 

 

There is no reason for anyone to ever commit a willful sin.

But we all choose to sin from time to time. We all fail, including you, whether you have ability to admit it or not. That is where the grace of God comes in and it is one of the most beautiful themes of Scripture.

 

I used to live like that.  I would continually find myself giving into temptations, and then having to confess them.  Then one day, God showed me that there is no reason why I have to keep falling, because his grace is sufficient to set me free from sin's bondage.  I can't remember the last incident where I committed a wilful sin, but it goes back further than when Tinky said I can't go an hour without wilful sin.  And no, that is nothing to brag about, or be prideful over. 

 

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants:  we have done that which was our duty to do.  Luke 17:10

 

If we are prideful over doing our duty, it is only because we are ignorant.  No Christian has to commit wilful sins, ever.

 

Let not sin therefore reign  in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:  but yield youselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.  For sin SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU:  for ye are not under the law, but under grace.  Romans 6:12-14

 

If you are still committing wilful sins, you are choosing to obey sin in the lusts thereof.  You are giving sin dominion over you. 

 

And again, this is no differen't than saying I must maintain my American citizenship by not commiting a felony. It is not like I live in fear I might commit a felony, because I obey the laws of the land. For that reason, my citizenship is safe.

But your argument is that if a Christian commits one intentional sin he/she loses their citizenship in heaven. So your analogy doesn't really apply. In fact it contradicts your home-made theology about sin.

 

It applies perfectly.  If I am convicted of one felony, I lose my U.S. citizenship, but not so with lesser crimes.  All theology is home-made.  It can all be traced back to human beings.  All the denominations trace their roots back to home-made doctrine of people like Calvin, Luther, Wesley, etc.  Even your doctrine is home-made. 

 

What breaks down there? That is what I said, and what I meant. That person was never really chosen to be saved, which is why they fell before they died.

Which is not in the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible about having to endure to make it to heaven. It breaks down because it contradicts what you say about sinning. You claim that one sin is all it takes to go to hell if it is not repented of. Yet you don't seem to perceive the opposite is also true of your argument. You claim that a person has to endure to be saved. That means that one is saved by working, enduring, staying the course. They are saved by their works. If ONE work is all it takes to go to hell, if ONE sin weighs heavier than 25 years of faithful service, then you are teaching salvation by works, or salvation by enduring.

 

Sure there is.  To the churches in Revelation, it makes it clear that if you want to make it to heaven, you have to be an overcomer.  Those were all literal, New Testament churches.  In reality, nobody is really saved by works, because we are only saved if God chose us to be saved. 

 

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.  For the scripture saith unto Pharoah, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

We live right so we can have assurance in ourselves we are the elect.

 

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:  for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:  For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.  2 Peter 1:10.11

 

Yes someone did. Tinky did. I gave her a chance to say I took her wrong, and she didn't. Ask her directly if you don't believe me. I will still accept it if she says I am wrong. I am not putting words in anyone's mouth. You have just lied about me. Go back and look at what Tinky said. I will put out the question right now. Tinky, do you believe that God will deliver us from the bondage of sin, to where we don't have to commit willful sins, or does he leave us in a sinful state but just deliver us from hell? I will accept it if you say I took you wrong.

I read what Tinky said and I can tell the difference between how you are painting her responses and what she really said and meant. I am not going to buy into your revisionist approach to her posts. Honestly, you create theology out of whole cloth and now you are misrepresneting what Tinky has said. I will let her answer for herself, as I already understand the truth of her comments and I will not be swayed by your mischaracterization of her words.

 

Then let Tinky answer for herself.  I gave her opportunity to do so,  and if she says I took her wrong and explains why, I will accept it.  What I won't do is accept you telling me I am wrong about what she meant.  Only she can say that for sure? 

 

[Tinky]

BUTERO You can have all the confidence in the world, but that doesn't make what you believe true.  I believe that if you committed willful sins after you got saved, you were lost, until you repented.  Based on what you have said about your life, I suspect you have been saved and lost and re-saved many times over, but just don't accept it.

 

 

Ridiculous. The Bible says salvation is a gift, and not of works - a gift cannot be earned. You advocate, however, that we must continually earn this gift by our works - and with one slip-up, God takes it back. If that were the case, it was never a gift at all.

 

Read Romans 4:4-6!

 

 

BUTERO That is not true Tinky.  Just go to the sermon on the mount.  He commanded us to do a lot of things.  We were told not to take oaths.  We were told not to call out brother a fool.  We were told how to pray.  We were told not to divorce and re-marry unless fornication is involved.  In that one sermon, there are many commandments from the Lord.  He said we must do whatsoever he commands us, and that is a lot.

 

 

And you just keep adding conditions, just like the Pharisees. Such as your belief that if a woman slips on a pair of pants, her soul is on it's way to hell. You still hold onto a Law that was never intended to be kept. Because it can't be kept! The Bible says not even the Jews to whom the Law was given could keep it. (Galatians 6:13). Even Paul said he was not under the Law! (1 Corinthians 4:20)

 

You also seem to forget that the Bible says that the entire Law is summed up in a single command: To love your neighbor as yourself. (Galatians 5:14). 

 

And Jesus Himself said all the work God requires us to do is "believe in the one He has sent." (John 6:28-29)

 

 

Don't you realize that by your efforts at keeping a Law that was nailed to the cross you are:

 

 

1. Not led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:18)

 

2. Not justified (Galatians 2:16, 21, Romans 3:20, 27-28, Acts 13:38-39, Romans 3:27-28)

 

3. Not righteous (1 Timothy 1:8, Galatians 3:21, Philippians 3:9, Romans 3:21-22)

 

4. Under a curse (Galatians 3:10)

 

5. Foolish (Galatians 3:2-3)

 

6. Not living by faith (Galatians 3:11-12, 23-25)

 

7. Fallen away from Grace (Galatians 5:4)

 

8. Not redeemed (Galatians 4:4-5)

 

9. Not perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19)

 

10. Not released (Romans 7:6)

 

11. Veiled = "blind" (2 Corinthians 3: 14-16)

 

 

TINKY What kind of salvation offer would allow us to bounce back and forth between the devil and Jesus?

BUTERO This is a good question too.  In reality, that doesn't happen.

 

 

Sorry, Butero, but it does indeed happen. You can't serve two masters (Matthew 6:24). If you lose your salvation, as you claim, you can't hold on to any aspects of salvation. You cannot be a child of God if you are not saved. Your adoption is nullified. You want to have your cake and eat it to by saying, "God knew who were the real children of God and who were the real children of the devil from the start." By being saved and lost countless times in your life, as you believe, (and still are, as you admitted that you don't claim a sinless life) you are bouncing back and forth between being a servant of God and a servant of the Devil.

 

Also, at the moment you lose your salvation because of a single sin, as you believe, you also:

 

1. Are no longer a citizen of Heaven (Philippians 3:20)

 

2. Go back to being dead in your sins (Romans 6:11)

 

3. Are no longer a new creation (2 Corinthians 1:2)

 

4. Are no longer reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:19)

 

5. Are no longer a son/daughter of God (Galatians 3:26, 2 Corinthians 6:18)

 

6. Are no longer chosen (Ephesians 1:4)

 

7. Are no longer redeemed (Ephesians 1:7)

 

8. Are no longer forgiven (Ephesians 4:32)

 

9. Are no longer an heir of God (Romans 8:17)

 

10. Are no longer holy (Hebrews 10:10, 13:12)

 

11. Are no longer righteous (Romans 3:22)

 

12. Are no longer perfect (Hebrews 10:14)

 

13. Are no longer a Saint (Philippians 4: 21-22, 1 Corinthians 1:2)

 

14. Are no longer a priest (1 Peter 2:9)

 

15. Are no longer an ambassador for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20)

 

16. Are no longer sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) BTW, these verses say our inheritance is guaranteed. According to what you believe, this is wrong, and there is no guarantee of our inheritance.

 

 

That's quite a bit to lose, especially for a woman who simply puts on a pair of jeans. 

 

 

The Bible makes it quite clear: salvation is all of grace through faith and not of any works. For if it were of any works, it would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:6, 3:27-28, Galatians 2:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 4:4-6, Titus 3:5)

 

 

 

You are trying to reach perfection through your works, Butero. It won't work. We have already been proclaimed perfect through Christ's finished work on the cross. In that way, He gets all the deserved glory - not us.

 

 

Paul himself said, "...Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners - of whom I am the worst." (1 Timothy 1:15) Notice he said "I am" not "I was" the worst sinner. He wrote this after his conversion! By your belief, Paul was lost and on his way to hell.

 

 

Read Romans 7:14-24 again, Butero. Also, 1 John 1:8.

 

 

I am praying for you, Butero. Praying that you will see a works-righteousness salvation is no salvation at all.

[Guest Butero]

BUTERO You can have all the confidence in the world, but that doesn't make what you believe true.  I believe that if you committed willful sins after you got saved, you were lost, until you repented.  Based on what you have said about your life, I suspect you have been saved and lost and re-saved many times over, but just don't accept it.

 

 

Ridiculous. The Bible says salvation is a gift, and not of works - a gift cannot be earned. You advocate, however, that we must continually earn this gift by our works - and with one slip-up, God takes it back. If that were the case, it was never a gift at all.

 

BUTERO- Yes, you can receive a gift, and have it taken back.  It can be conditional.  I have heard of many instances over the years where someone leaves an inheritance to another person, but it is conditional on them doing something, or not doing something. 

 

Read Romans 4:4-6!

 

BUTERO-  Read James 2:24,26

 

 

BUTERO That is not true Tinky.  Just go to the sermon on the mount.  He commanded us to do a lot of things.  We were told not to take oaths.  We were told not to call out brother a fool.  We were told how to pray.  We were told not to divorce and re-marry unless fornication is involved.  In that one sermon, there are many commandments from the Lord.  He said we must do whatsoever he commands us, and that is a lot.

 

 

And you just keep adding conditions, just like the Pharisees. Such as your belief that if a woman slips on a pair of pants, her soul is on it's way to hell. You still hold onto a Law that was never intended to be kept. Because it can't be kept! The Bible says not even the Jews to whom the Law was given could keep it. (Galatians 6:13). Even Paul said he was not under the Law! (1 Corinthians 4:20)

 

BUTERO-  Why can't that law be kept Tinky?  I could choose to put on a dress, committing an abominable sin, but I don't have to.  The same thing goes with other sins too.  We tell kids to just say no to drugs and sex.  Is that just something we say, or do we really believe they have it in their power to say no?  If we can say no in one area, we can in other areas.  There is no reason for anyone to commit wilful sins, ever. 

 

You are correct that Paul wasn't under the law.  He was walking in the Spirit, and therefore he didn't need a law on tables of stone to lead him in the paths of righteousness.  At the same time, Paul gave us a list of behavior that he said will keep us out of heaven, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.  Those are laws Tinky.  If nobody has to be concerned with how they live, why warn us about that?  Why warn us of other sins that will keep us out of heaven in Galatians 5:19-21?  Why put people out of the church in Corinth, if we have no concern for keeping the law?  Why did God strike Ananias and Saphira dead, if there is no concern with keeping God's laws?  Why tell us we must be overcomers in Revelation, if there is no need to keep God's laws?  The key is found in Galatians 5:18, which says, "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."  People that continue in wilful sin are not led of the Spirit, therefore they are under the law and don't recognize it.  In other words Tinky, you are under the law, but think you are living under grace. 

 

You also seem to forget that the Bible says that the entire Law is summed up in a single command: To love your neighbor as yourself. (Galatians 5:14). 

 

BUTERO-  That is incorrect Tinky.  Jesus actually stated that the greatest commandment was to love God with our whole heart, and the second greatest commandment was to love our neighbor as ourselves.  The reason why the whole law is found in those two commandments is because if you love God and your neighbor, you won't sin against either of them.  Sin is the transgression of the law, according to 1 John 3:4

 

And Jesus Himself said all the work God requires us to do is "believe in the one He has sent." (John 6:28-29)

 

BUTERO-  He doesn't say that is the only thing required of us.  In Luke 18:18-20, a man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, and he began quoting him commandments.  Faith in Christ is a starting point.  You can't be saved without Christ, but simply believing is not enough.  According to James 2:19, "the devils also believe, and tremble."

 

Don't you realize that by your efforts at keeping a Law that was nailed to the cross you are:

 

 

1. Not led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:18)

 

BUTERO-  I don't have to keep the law.  If I am led by the Spirit, I will bear the fruit of the Spirit, and won't break the law.  Don't you realize that if you are not led by the Spirit, then you will break God's laws, and you are the one under the law?  "But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."  Notice what else it says in that same passage.  Galatians 5:19-21  "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, withcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:  of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God."  Ever known a Christian that was in fornication?  They SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God.  Ever known a Christian who was into witchcraft?  They SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God.  These are laws Tinky.  If we are led of the Spirit, we don't commit those transgressions.  God did not give us a license to sin.  That is not the plan of salvation.  That is bondage. 

 

2. Not justified (Galatians 2:16, 21, Romans 3:20, 27-28, Acts 13:38-39, Romans 3:27-28)

 

BUTERO-  That is not true either.  Before we were born, we were stained with original sin.  Before we were born again, we committed many other transgressions, and one transgression would keep us out of heaven.  We were justified when we accepted Christ, and it was as if we hadn't done those things.  All those old sins were washed away.  My issue with you is that I don't believe we are automatically forgiven of all wilful transgressions we commit after we were initially saved, and justified. 

 

3. Not righteous (1 Timothy 1:8, Galatians 3:21, Philippians 3:9, Romans 3:21-22)

 

BUTERO-  You have this one completely backwards.  According to 1 John 2:3,4 says, "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."  It further says in 1 John 3:7,8  "Little children, let no man deceive you:  he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.  For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destory the works of the devil." 

 

4. Under a curse (Galatians 3:10)

 

BUTERO-  There is a difference in keeping God's commandments, as it says we must in 1 John 2:3,4, and believing that keeping the commandments without Christ saves us.  No, we that believe in following God's standards are not under the curse of the law, but those of you who continue to live in wilful sins shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

5. Foolish (Galatians 3:2-3)

 

BUTERO- The Galatians Paul was speaking of were trying to claim your salvation was not complete until you were circumcized, and agreed to keep the ceremonial portions of the law.  Paul was not speaking of the need to abstain from sins that violate God's standard of holiness.  If he was, then he contradicted himself in that very same letter in Galatians 5:19-21, where he gave specific sins that will keep those who do them from inheriting the Kingdom of God."

 

6. Not living by faith (Galatians 3:11-12, 23-25)

 

BUTERO-  1 John 2:3  "And hereby we do know that we know him, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS."

 

7. Fallen away from Grace (Galatians 5:4)

 

BUTERO-  This doesn't even make sense in light of your doctrinal beliefs.  If you have eternal security as you claim, how can you fall from grace for doing anything?  The people Paul was speaking of were those teaching you have to be circumcised to be saved.  It was FAITH + CIRCUMCISION = SALVATION.  That is not true.  He was speaking of laws of separation, that only applied to the Jews who were under the law of Moses.  There are 3 types of laws.  1  Laws dealing with the office of the Levitical Priesthood.  They no longer apply, because they were only temporary until the cross.  2  Laws showing the Jews were a separate people from the Idol worshipping gentile nations.  They no longer apply because the Gentiles are now part of the Christian Church. These laws never applied to the gentiles.  It is that second group Paul was speaking of.  3  Laws dealing with things that would violate God's standard of Holiness.  These still apply.  How do I know they still apply?  Because Paul lists many of them in Galatians 5:19-21, and says those who do these things won't inherit the Kingdom of God. 

 

8. Not redeemed (Galatians 4:4-5)

 

BUTERO-  And who is under the law?  Those who are not walking in the Spirit.  Again, Galatians 5:18, "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."  How do I know if I am led of the Spirit?  I will bear fruit.  Galatians 5:22-24  "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:  AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW."  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."  The contrast between the Spirit led person and the one walking after the flesh can clearly be seen by behavior.  Jump back up to verses 19-21.  If you will look carefully at the things Paul says they are seeking to go back up under, they are ceremonial laws and laws of separation that only applied to the Jews.  They had nothing to do with God's standard of holiness, like the laws mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

 

9. Not perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19)

 

BUTERO-  Nobody can be made perfect by simply choosing to keep the law, without faith in Christ.  That is because we have all sinned and fallen short of God's glory at some time in our past, and we were born with original sin on us.  The wages of sin is death, so we needed a savior, and we all need grace to make it to heaven.  That doesn't mean that once we are saved, we have been given a license to sin.  Hebrews 10:28,29  "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy udner two or three witnesses:  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden udner foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, and unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" 

 

10. Not released (Romans 7:6)

 

BUTERO-  And again, the key is that if we are led of the Spirit, we are not under the law.  It says that in Galatians, and it also says that in Romans.  Romans 8:14  "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."  If ye are not led of the Spririt, that means you are not a son or daughter of God.  How do you know you are Spirit led?  Go back again and look at the contrast of the person who is Spirit led as opposed to those who walk in the flesh in Galatians. 

 

11. Veiled = "blind" (2 Corinthians 3: 14-16)

 

BUTERO-  Those who don't believe in Christ have blinders on their eyes, so they cannot believe, and cannot be saved.  I believe in the Lord.  Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.  Flesh and blood does not reveal that to a person, but the Heavenly Father does.  True liberty means freedom from sin, not freedom to sin.  2 Corinthians 3:17  "Now the Lord is that Spirit:  and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."  That doesn't mean liberty to do drugs, commit adultery or fornication, or be a drunkard or thief.  That is bondage.  That is the same behavior we did as sinners.  Christ came to set us free from that kind of bondage, so we no longer have to serve sin. 

 

 

TINKY What kind of salvation offer would allow us to bounce back and forth between the devil and Jesus?

BUTERO This is a good question too.  In reality, that doesn't happen.

 

 

Sorry, Butero, but it does indeed happen. You can't serve two masters (Matthew 6:24). If you lose your salvation, as you claim, you can't hold on to any aspects of salvation. You cannot be a child of God if you are not saved. Your adoption is nullified. You want to have your cake and eat it to by saying, "God knew who were the real children of God and who were the real children of the devil from the start." By being saved and lost countless times in your life, as you believe, (and still are, as you admitted that you don't claim a sinless life) you are bouncing back and forth between being a servant of God and a servant of the Devil.

 

BUTERO-  Nice try Tinky, but it won't fly.  If you were chosen by God before the foundation of the earth to be saved, you will be saved.  If you were created to be destroyed, you will be destroyed.  We don't have any way of knowing who the wheat and tares are, because they can look similar?  Likewise, we can't always tell the sheep from the goats in the congregation.  God knows who the real sheep are.  In that way, the real sheep are kept.  That is the reality we can't see. 

 

What we can see is what is taking place in our life.  We know if we are living for Jesus or living in sin?  God knew the outcome from the start, so the spiritual reality is, nobody is really saved and lost and saved and lost.  I use that to explain how it appears on earth, because we don't see the end.  Neither of us are really saved and lost repeatedly, because God knew if we would return to him or not?  It is like if I wrote a story, and created one character who would live a Godly life for 20 years and then turn away and die lost.  For 20 years, he appeared saved, and would have been saved had he died in that condition, but he couldn't die in that condition because the story was already written.  The same thing takes place in your life and in my life.  The story is written, but we don't know how it ends? 

 

Also, at the moment you lose your salvation because of a single sin, as you believe, you also:

 

1. Are no longer a citizen of Heaven (Philippians 3:20)

 

2. Go back to being dead in your sins (Romans 6:11)

 

3. Are no longer a new creation (2 Corinthians 1:2)

 

4. Are no longer reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:19)

 

5. Are no longer a son/daughter of God (Galatians 3:26, 2 Corinthians 6:18)

 

6. Are no longer chosen (Ephesians 1:4)

 

7. Are no longer redeemed (Ephesians 1:7)

 

8. Are no longer forgiven (Ephesians 4:32)

 

9. Are no longer an heir of God (Romans 8:17)

 

10. Are no longer holy (Hebrews 10:10, 13:12)

 

11. Are no longer righteous (Romans 3:22)

 

12. Are no longer perfect (Hebrews 10:14)

 

13. Are no longer a Saint (Philippians 4: 21-22, 1 Corinthians 1:2)

 

14. Are no longer a priest (1 Peter 2:9)

 

15. Are no longer an ambassador for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20)

 

16. Are no longer sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) BTW, these verses say our inheritance is guaranteed. According to what you believe, this is wrong, and there is no guarantee of our inheritance.

 

 

That's quite a bit to lose, especially for a woman who simply puts on a pair of jeans. 

 

BUTERO-  I find it silly you keep reverting to one sin, over and over and over?  I am not sure why?  The Bible calls it an abomination for a woman to wear what applies to a man or a man to put on a woman's garment.  If I go around wearing a dress, I don't think that is a light thing?  As a matter of fact, the largest Christians women's group in the country, "Concerned Women For America," have been attacking a book about a little boy wearing a skirt.  They don't take that lightly.  It is a serious transgression! 

 

Again, we come back to the same thing again, predestination and election.  I don't believe those chosen of God to be saved can be lost.  We just don't know for sure who they are?  You could be one of the elect, and then again, you might not be?  If you are, you are sealed, and can't be lost, because the story is written in the mind of God.  I think I have made my position very clear, and I can easily provide as much scriptural support, if not more, to defend my position than you can to defend yours.  As a matter of fact, I can poke all kinds of holes in your doctrine, but mine is sound.  It can't be disproven.  The arguments against it all depend on someone claiming it goes against the character of God, but I can easily show that is not the case. 

 

 

The Bible makes it quite clear: salvation is all of grace through faith and not of any works. For if it were of any works, it would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:6, 3:27-28, Galatians 2:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 4:4-6, Titus 3:5)

 

BUTERO-  James 2:17  "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

 

 

You are trying to reach perfection through your works, Butero. It won't work. We have already been proclaimed perfect through Christ's finished work on the cross. In that way, He gets all the deserved glory - not us.

 

BUTERO-  He gets all the glory because it was God who chose us, not we who chose him.  If we are saved, it is by God's choice alone.  Our works alone can't save us, but if we have no works, it shows we never really belonged to Christ in the first place, but were only deceiving ourselves.

 

 

Paul himself said, "...Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners - of whom I am the worst." (1 Timothy 1:15) Notice he said "I am" not "I was" the worst sinner. He wrote this after his conversion! By your belief, Paul was lost and on his way to hell.

 

BUTERO-  Paul was speaking of the man he was before his conversion.  He said, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."  There is no way Paul was the chief sinner when he wrote that verse.  He was refering to his state without having been cleansed by the blood of Christ.  All those wicked deeds he did, including the stoning of Stephen, were charged to his account, and led to many stains on his spiritual garments. 

 

 

Read Romans 7:14-24 again, Butero. Also, 1 John 1:8.

 

 

I am praying for you, Butero. Praying that you will see a works-righteousness salvation is no salvation at all.

 

BUTERO-  Well Tinky, I pray that the Lord will deliver you from the bondage of sin.  You don't have to serve sin anymore.  Christ came to set you free.  The last thing I want to do is go back to serving sin, thinking I can do so and remain saved?  If you want to believe that, go right ahead, but you are wrong, and are going to find out the hard way. 

[Guest shiloh357]

The Bible calls it an abomination for a woman to wear what applies to a man or a man to put on a woman's garment. 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that part of your "theology."   All Christian women wearing pants at this moment have (unless they repent) lost their salvation.   What a crock...

 

 

 

 

We need grace for the times we commit unintentional sins. 

 

 

 

So what happens if you sin "intentionally?"   What if a guy is in motel and he intentionally turns on the pay per view an orders a porn movie?   Is there any grace for him since it  was an intentional act?  

 

 

 

 

There is really no use in going through this post section by section, because all I can say is I disagree with you on nearly every point. 

 

 

 

 

 

The difference is that I can tell you WHY I disagree with you.   You just post a block quote and state that you disagree, but you can't really provide much in substance as to why.  You can't show me why I am wrong.   You tend to think that simply stating you disagree counts as a response.  The truth is that you CAN'T show me where I am wrong, because I'm not.  You can't show me what I said that was wrong about the grammatical evidence I presented becasue the evidence is sound and pretty much torpedoes the way you are handling heb. 10:26.   All you can do is be defiant, but for no real reason. 

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with you about the word wilfully.  I don't agree with you regarding your interpretation of the passage in Hebrews.  I don't agree with you that all sins are wilful, however, I did notice you phrased things a little differen't this time.  You said, "all acts of rebellion are intentional."  That is not the same as saying all sins are wilful.  A sin that is not wilful would be one done without meaning to.  It would mean there was no rebellion in mind.  I can actually agree with the phrase, "all acts of rebellion are intentional," and still disagree with you when you claim all sins are wilful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

All sin is rebellion against God.  That is Bible 101.  Acts of rebellion against God and sins are simply two ways of saying the same thing and your rather questionable ways of handling the English language in order to weasel around the obvious problems that lie in your interpretive skills will not change that fact.

 

[Guest Butero]

 

The Bible calls it an abomination for a woman to wear what applies to a man or a man to put on a woman's garment. 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that part of your "theology."   All Christian women wearing pants at this moment have (unless they repent) lost their salvation.   What a crock...

 

 

 

 

We need grace for the times we commit unintentional sins. 

 

 

 

So what happens if you sin "intentionally?"   What if a guy is in motel and he intentionally turns on the pay per view an orders a porn movie?   Is there any grace for him since it  was an intentional act?  

 

 

 

 

There is really no use in going through this post section by section, because all I can say is I disagree with you on nearly every point. 

 

 

 

 

 

The difference is that I can tell you WHY I disagree with you.   You just post a block quote and state that you disagree, but you can't really provide much in substance as to why.  You can't show me why I am wrong.   You tend to think that simply stating you disagree counts as a response.  The truth is that you CAN'T show me where I am wrong, because I'm not.  You can't show me what I said that was wrong about the grammatical evidence I presented becasue the evidence is sound and pretty much torpedoes the way you are handling heb. 10:26.   All you can do is be defiant, but for no real reason. 

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with you about the word wilfully.  I don't agree with you regarding your interpretation of the passage in Hebrews.  I don't agree with you that all sins are wilful, however, I did notice you phrased things a little differen't this time.  You said, "all acts of rebellion are intentional."  That is not the same as saying all sins are wilful.  A sin that is not wilful would be one done without meaning to.  It would mean there was no rebellion in mind.  I can actually agree with the phrase, "all acts of rebellion are intentional," and still disagree with you when you claim all sins are wilful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

All sin is rebellion against God.  That is Bible 101.  Acts of rebellion against God and sins are simply two ways of saying the same thing and your rather questionable ways of handling the English language in order to weasel around the obvious problems that lie in your interpretive skills will not change that fact.

 

 

=========================================================================================================

 

Frankly Shiloh, I don't care what you think is a crock.  There is no way to respond to silly comments like that.  What do I say?  No, your views are a crock?  Those kind of comments have no value.

 

A man choosing to watch porn on pay per view is a wilful sin. 

 

I have given scripture to back myself up, and you just say I am interpreting it wrong.  I will just turn around and say you are interpreting it wrong.  All sin is not rebellion, because it is possible to sin without realizing it.  To be in rebellion, you have to know you are doing something you aren't supposed to do.  It is doing something wilfully. 

 

You are the one mishandling the English language, and I have proven that.  You can say I am wrong all you want, and I will keep saying you are wrong. 

[GoldenEagle]

Perhaps it's time to take a break from this thread for a bit. Closed for review.

[GoldenEagle]

Re-opened the thread. Since the quote feature is broken please make your posts smaller in length and more concise. This will assist in helping others (including Moderators) understand the discussion. Discuss one sub-topic and/or point at a time if necessary. Then move onto the next one.

 

We appreciate your cooperation and hopefully this will be fixed soon.

 

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

Butero, one of the biggest problems with your troubled theology is the lack of internal consistency. Not the only problem, but it is big one.  For exmample, according to you:

 

 

1.   A sinless God who hates sin willed for man to sin and become separated from Him.

 

2.  Every rape, murder, every act of child molestation, spousal abuse is according to the perfect will God, even though the perfect will God is diametrically opposed to such acts.

 

3.  A loving God who sacrifices His only Son wants some people to go to hell.   In fact, this loving God creates people for the express purpose of destroying them and sending them to hell.

 

4.  If a person who is a Chrisitan commits an intentional sin, they lose their salvation,  but it was God, according to you, that willed they sin in the first place, so God, in effect, caused them to lose their salvation.

 

5. God chooses to save some but then also causes those He chose not to "endure" and thus lose salvation.   So even a saved person really has no assurance that God will not in the future rescind their salvation, effectively "un-choosing" them and making them go to hell. 

 

6. God who calls Chrisitans to be holy, according to you also forces them to be unholy and disobey Him because according to you, no one can do anything that God didn't intend to happen.  

 

 

Given the above, God would actually be the real enemy of our souls.  Your theology makes God the source and perpetuater of sin.  Your theology is a direct assault on God's character and operations and is heretical to the core. 

 

Questions:

 

• How does your "theology" deal with  still born infants that die in the delivery room?   Did they die because they were not "chosen" and thus go to hell?   If so, how does a person comfort grieving parents in that situation?  What hope do you offer them?
• What is the use of preaching the Gospel if you can't really offer people hope about eternity?  
• How does telling people that God might abrogate your salvation in the future by causing you to commit a "willful" sin amount to "good news?"
• How can you say that it is possible to go through life never committing a willful sin IF God might cause you to do so in the future?  
• How can anyone have any assurance in this life that they belong to Jesus and will spend eternity with Him, if some of the people God chooses to be saved, He doesn't choose to endure to the end?

[Guest Butero]

 

Butero, one of the biggest problems with your troubled theology is the lack of internal consistency. Not the only problem, but it is big one.  For exmample, according to you:

 

 

1.   A sinless God who hates sin willed for man to sin and become separated from Him.

 

God uses his creation to show a contrast between good and evil.  We are a witness to the superiority of righteousness over unrighteousness to his entire creation. 

 

2.  Every rape, murder, every act of child molestation, spousal abuse is according to the perfect will God, even though the perfect will God is diametrically opposed to such acts.

 

There is no such thing as a permissive will of God verses a perfect will of God.  That doctrine is not found in scripture. 

 

3.  A loving God who sacrifices His only Son wants some people to go to hell.   In fact, this loving God creates people for the express purpose of destroying them and sending them to hell.

 

If God really desired all to be saved, they would be saved.  Another problem with your comment is this constant reference to God as "loving."  I suppose this is based on John 3:16?  Yes, God is loving, but that is not his only characteristic.  Don't forget that God also sends people to burn and be tornmented in hell for eternity for simply refusing to accept Jesus, or for not being able to believe in Jesus. 

 

4.  If a person who is a Chrisitan commits an intentional sin, they lose their salvation,  but it was God, according to you, that willed they sin in the first place, so God, in effect, caused them to lose their salvation.

 

They were never really saved to begin with, because God knew what they would do when he made them.  "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?  For who hath resisted his will?  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?  Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"   Romans 9:19-24  BTW, I am sure you have some explaination for why this passage doesn't mean what I said it does, but my interpretation stands.  You are free to disagree all you want, but simply doing so won't mean that I will accept your explaination and then accept the notion I couldn't defend my position, or didn't provide evidence to back myself up.  I clearly did provide evidence. 

 

5. God chooses to save some but then also causes those He chose not to "endure" and thus lose salvation.   So even a saved person really has no assurance that God will not in the future rescind their salvation, effectively "un-choosing" them and making them go to hell. 

 

They were not chosen to begin with.  They only thought they were.  Even you allow for the possibility a person can think they are saved when they are not.  You just say that when they fall, they were never really saved.  There is no assurance in that doctrine either.  As a matter of fact, there is less assurance in your doctrine, because if a person appears saved, but backslides later on and they were not really saved, by your doctrine, had they died while they were living for Jesus, they still would have gone to hell because they weren't really saved.  They only thought they were.  Under my doctrine, if you continue to serve the Lord, and say no to wilful sin, your calling and election is made sure, so you have assurance of your salvation at that time.  Neither of us give absolute assurance of salvation.  The only one that does that is Tinky with her doctrine, and her doctrine is not Biblical. 

 

6. God who calls Chrisitans to be holy, according to you also forces them to be unholy and disobey Him because according to you, no one can do anything that God didn't intend to happen.  

 

They weren't really Christians if they don't continue.  They were tares or goats, rather than wheat or sheep.  God created us, knowing everything we would ever do, both good and evil.  We are making the decisions, but God made us the way we are.  Peter chose to deny Jesus three times, but Jesus knew he would do that, because he was created in a way where he would commit that sin.  Jesus also knew Peter would be restored, and end up dying a martyr.  This was already settled.  It was also settled that Judas would betray Jesus and die lost after hanging himself. 

 

 

Given the above, God would actually be the real enemy of our souls.  Your theology makes God the source and perpetuater of sin.  Your theology is a direct assault on God's character and operations and is heretical to the core. 

 

Those are your conclusions, and they are wrong.  God would not be the enemy of the soul of any of the chosen saved.  I could say God is the enemy of the soul right now, even using your doctrine, because of all the people that die lost and spend eternity in hell that don't accept Christ.  They could even be good, moral people, and die lost.   "Heretical to the core?"  And you were doing so good up to now in staying away from that kind of worthless rhetoric.  What can I reply to that?  I suppose I could say you are preaching heretical doctrine, but what good would that do? 

 

Questions:

 

• How does your "theology" deal with  still born infants that die in the delivery room?   Did they die because they were not "chosen" and thus go to hell?   If so, how does a person comfort grieving parents in that situation?  What hope do you offer them?
• Physical death has nothing to do with whether or not someone was chosen saved or lost. 
• What is the use of preaching the Gospel if you can't really offer people hope about eternity?  
• God knew the people would reject Noah, but he still warned them.  The purpose of preaching the gospel is so people are without excuse on the judgment day.  We won't be able to claim we didn't know better, because the gospel is out there, along with God's plan of salvation. 
• How does telling people that God might abrogate your salvation in the future by causing you to commit a "willful" sin amount to "good news?"
• How is telling a person that if they don't accept Jesus, they will go to hell good news?  The good news isn't judgment, but the good news is that we can be saved by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and obeying him.  If we don't commit wilful sins, we never have to worry about our salvation, and if we do, we can confess our sins, and receive forgiveness.  That is good news.  It is also good news that we don't have to remain in bondage to sin.  Jesus gives us the power to be overcomers. 
• How can you say that it is possible to go through life never committing a willful sin IF God might cause you to do so in the future? 
• Because God might not cause you to do so in the future.  None of us are being forced to sin in the way you are saying.  It is just that God programed us to be the people we are, and he knew what we would do before we were conceived.  We make the choices, but he knew what they would be, so in that sense, we have no real choice.  If I am tempted to get drunk, I make the decision to say yes or no to alcohol, but God knew what I would do.  He knew if I did choose to sin, whether or not I would have a chance to repent?   
• How can anyone have any assurance in this life that they belong to Jesus and will spend eternity with Him, if some of the people God chooses to be saved, He doesn't choose to endure to the end?
• First of all, they have zero assurance under your doctrine, because you admit that someone can think they are saved when they are not.  I give people more assurance than you do, because I would say that a person can make their calling and election sure by continuing to follow Christ, and saying no to wilful sin. 

 

[Tinky]

Butero, I was all set to answer your last post to me point-by-point, but then I thought, "why bother?"

 

 

This thread is ruined. I so wanted it to be a positive one among so many negative threads. I wanted this thread to offer people a little hope - a little comfort.

 

 

But according to what you preach, we can never have true hope, or real comfort. 

 

 

I'm going to request this thread be closed for good. I can't stand to read any more of your works-righteousness, pride-driven, Old Testament Law-keeping, glory-sharing "gospel."